doug wrote:it's not theirs. they didn't protect it from anybody, and even if they did, i'm doing that now. i've staked it out, i'm looking after it now. it's my home. they've no more a reasonable claim to it then i do.
So... say you own an apartment house. You bought it. You maintain it. And you rent it out to people. And then somebody who happened to be born in your apartment house grows up and says because they were born there and they live there now, they shouldn't have to pay their rent anymore. Ridiculous.
So, if the mob moves in on your block and starts "protecting" you from other mobs, should you pay their fees, and is that 'right'? if you don't like it, should YOU move or should it be the mob who backs off? hmm? and even if you do move, all that does is put you under the "protection" of another mob. hmm. some choice.
You claim I don't live in the real world. But look at this argument. "Should" doesn't work in the real world. So if I didn't like the mob, maybe it "should" go away. Logically, however, if they were going to kill me if I didn't pay, and I didn't want to pay, then I wouldn't sit there and say they "should" move, because so what? Maybe they should. That doesn't mean they're gonna. So you can say the government "should" do something all you want, but if you don't act on that, then you're the worst kind of hypocrite.
Also. There are lots of things about life that suck and there is nothing we can do about them. If you think the government sucks, and you don't think there's anywhere you can go in the world that isn't oppressive to your freedoms, fine. You've gotta come to terms with it. If you can't change something, or are unwilling to, then why be so livid and bitter about it all the time? I really don't understand how you can come on this board, throw around "shoulds", say you won't fight for your beliefs, and then sit there and stew in your own self-righteous fury. It isn't productive. It's not getting you anything, except perhaps elevated blood pressure.
So a person comes to my house attempting to harm me or my property and i put a bullet in him. it is all good. My government-free yard would only put CRIMINALS in danger, which, considering their occupation, is ENTIRELY fair.
So now you and no one else is the arbiter of right and wrong. Sounds pretty fascist to me...
Ok, first of all, i'm willing to fight the system every way i can.
How?
Second of all, if you were paying attention, you would have figured out that i have no politikal leanings. I just want to be left alone. if there were a country on this earth that was leaving it's citizens alone, believe me, i'd be there.
Sorry, should have said "worldview".
I love how you say "yeah you're right, self-government is rational but it's a pipe dream" because like all other UPSTANDING CITIZENS you can't refute the theory so you instead choose to engage in an endless, pointless debate about who, in anarchy, would "make law". Why bother trying to defend a system that you KNOW is morally (if such a thing exists), logically, rationally FLAWED when you can just ask me "yeah but how would you pay for things without government money?? huh, huh huh?"
First, where did I say that? I may have said that anarchy works in theory, as do a lot of other things like socialism and religion, but once reality gets in the way, they fall apart or degenerate based on the fact that humans are not primarily logical beings. We have evolved as primarily selfish beings. Any chance for corruption quickly takes hold. Which is why every government is imperfect. If history has proven anything, it's that humans want to control other humans, and that some of them, at least, will try to do so at any cost. History has also proven that, for the most part, humans like to be controlled, as long as they feel that that control is justified. Anarchy IS a pipe dream because of that. There is no precedent for it. There is no society you can point to and say, "see, it works for them!" Why do you think that is? Because everyone's an idiot who can't see the logical perfection you see in anarchist theory? No. Because we as a species don't WANT anarchy. We KNOW our governments don't work perfectly - nothing does. Even if it was the most logical of systems, logic isn't the highest priority for most of us. It's isn't logical to give to charities, or to care about other people when they're just going to die anyway. It isn't logical to believe in anything beyond what we see with our eyes, and yet many people do. If human life was dominated by logic and nothing else, it wouldn't be worth living.
Furthermore, don't sit there and accuse ME of not living in the real world when you're (forgive me for the metaphor) so plugged in to the matrix it's not even funny. You can sit here and tell me anarchy is a pipe dream, well to you i say SO IS A WORKING DEMOCRACY. You think you have some control over who runs your country but YOU DON'T. you think your vote matters but IT DOESN'T. you think the war you just fought was either about freedom or oil but IT WASN'T.
Last I checked, most western societies were democracies, not anarchies. Last I checked, there wasn't massive revolt against this. So tell me how I am "plugged into the matrix" and you aren't. Face it: the people DON'T WANT anarchy. Otherwise, we would HAVE it. Governments may have power, but they only do because we let them. If we didn't want governments, we wouldn't have them - just as people have overthrown oppressive governments hundreds of times in the past, we would've overthrown our democracies by now if we really felt subjugated. That is reality. Anarchy is a fantasy. So you tell me, which is more like the "matrix"?
Democracies may not be perfect, in fact they may be very corrupt. But they do WORK. Democracy has been around since ancient Greece, several thousand years ago, and they STILL work. Don't equate "working" to being perfect. There isn't a such thing as a perfect democracy, no. There isn't a such thing as a perfect ANYTHING. It's very easy to say that anarchy would work, when all you have are some ideas on paper or on a computer screen. Show me a working anarchist society in the REAL world, and I'll agree that it works. Not that it's a good idea, or that I'd want to live there, but I'd agree that your viewpoints had some merit. But you don't HAVE an anarchy to use an example, do you? Hmm. Think that's a coincidence? I sure don't.
By the way, I'd be interested in hearing what you think the recent war was about? I wouldn't say "freedom" or "oil" - gosh, I do love it when you put words into my mouth - but rather a way for Bush to try and prove he has a bigger dick than his daddy. Of course, that's neither here nor there.
you sit here and tell me about the social contract and all that but that was thrown out the window long ago. this isn't a social contract anymore. you don't have ANY of the freedom that you think you have. the trouble with amerikans is that you all think demockracy and liberty are the same thing, well, THEY AREN'T. the systems of checks and balances that made your country "free" when it was founded are already gone or rapidly eroding. all of the sudden you can be labeld a terrorist or a traitor for expressing an opinion that contradicts the party line. people are losing their jobs, their homes, their FUCKING lives in your free society for what? for speaking out agains their government.
Propaganda. Give me ONE documented example of ANY of the things you just listed. Then we'll talk.
come up north to kanada if you want to see demockracy in action. half this fucking country didn't vote liberal, but because they're the smaller half they are not represented at all in parliment. it's been a liberal government in kanada for a DECADE even though the western provinces didn't vote them in. What a GREAT system! it's got so bad up here that some western provinces are talking seperation, and not this bullshit like quebec pulled. they mean honest to god seperation.
DEMOCKRACY ain't working. it's time we tried something else.
Once again, you're just showing that democracy is imperfect, not that anarchy would provide something better. Just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean you should destroy it. You should FIX it. Anarchy isn't the answer to society's problems. I would rephrase your last sentence like so:
Our current government isn't perfect. It's time we worked to make it better.
