long angry rant about stuff.

[Narbus]

Oh, you mean like a draft?

Is the draft in effect now? Oh, no it isn't. When/if it is, then you can bitch. Til' then, it's a non-issue. RIGHT NOW Saddam is doing this.

So does the USA.

Where? And if so, is it so that people are used as shields? Prove it.

1. It obviously does to your amerikan ass.
2. Yes. THE MAN is holding us all down. If you don't agree how about you try to debate that instead of making fun.

1. No, it doesn't. All it does is make me think you wear a tinfoil hat.
2. Jesus Christ. Do you know why I think you're such an ass? Because of things like this, and that whole retarded "unplug yourselves from the matrix" bullshit.
So. If I agree with you, then you're right, and you win.
If I disagree, then obviously I'm blind, and have been subjected to far too much propaganda because there's no such thing as a thinking individual who could possibly come to a different conclusion than you and you win.
If you don't agree how about you actually open up to the idea that you're wrong, you arrogant, solopistic, wannabe rebel.

Let's do this sentance by sentance. GWB has killed his people. They live in terror of him.

When did he send out death squads, drag people out of their homes in the middle of the night and execute them for sounding out against him? Because if this is happening, then explain how you're still ranting. I don't live in terror of him.

The ones who don't have bought into the propaganda they've been fed since preschool, and when the truth is shown to them they hide their eyes so they can continue to believe in their masters.

See above, solopist.

GWB has violated the Geneva Convention and the UN did nothing. He is a human rights nightmare, a lying, manipulative, murdering, forceful, whatever-you-want-to-call-it beast.

Okay, all you've been ranting about is destroying civillian infrastructure, and that's because Saddam builds potential targets near said infrastructure, which is an act of assholeness on Hussein's part. Is there anything else? Because Saddam has done far worse.

ps. what are you talking about? i've addressed all of your points. if you want me to address one again, so be it, just tell me which.

"The government was smaller then." Dumbass.
And all you've done is say "the US is evil, the US is evil, while completely failing to recognize that it's the US that lets you say that. Go to Iraq and start spreading anti-Hussein propoganda, and see how far you get.
Oh, and if you can come up with a VIABLE alternative to disarming Hussein like this, after he's shown himself to be a bastard over and over, then let's hear it. "Oh, well, if everyone would live together in peace and objectivism" is not a viable answer, for obvious reasons.

[mosaik]

look at narbus act like an asshole!

the draft may not be in effect right now, but it has been put into use in the past and will be again.

prove saddam's doing it RIGHT NOW.

where has the US built military installations near residential zones? Well for starters, I posted an article earlier about a cache of lethal weapons that's right next to a small city.

and if you've ever been to a major us coastal city you know there are naval bases and stations. I was in the one in San Diego last year while i was there on vacation.

how about the pentagon? civillians live and work near it. the white house is the same.

There are reserve garrisons or barracks in lots of US towns across the map as well.

narbus, the reason i say you're plugged in has nothing to do with you disagreeing with me and everything to do with the fact that you DO NOT QUESTION your government. I wouldn't mind if it seemed like you'd listen to anybody's tale of events besides the one the USA endorses but you plainly do not.

i do not think i know everything. in fact i know that i don't. i want to learn, i want people to challenge my beliefs. i could be wrong. but i want proof.

Now. In Iraq, the people who tow the party line and believe in their government very likely do not live in terror. Just the same as the people who live in amerika and support the government don't.

But critics of both governments are afraid of both governments. both have legitimate reasons to be afraid.

in one breath you say that the only people who trust the iraqi warlord have been duped by mistruth and propaganda. then in your next breath you say that of course that could never happen in the united states!

can't you see how that makes you look a little naive? you don't believe your government lies to you. if i show you proof that they do, you discard it without even thinking about it. because you don't think for one second that americans know how to lie.

see what i mean about the matrix, copper top?

if saddam builds a base in the city, don't blow up the city. period. if that means you have to go to war the old fashioned way and send your troops in to occupy the base instead of just carpet bombing, then that's what you do.

the government WAS smaller when america was founded. i don't get your point.

why does saddam have to be disarmed? he doesn't. let him have his bombs, we let you have yours and you're clearly a greater threat to world peace and soveriegnity then he is.

this war is not the answer. i can't believe the flimsy ass reasons your scum sucking nazi fuck of a president has given you has convinced you that disarming saddam is worth half a million lives.

oh wait, yes i can. because the matrix has you. but that's not going to save your soul, my friend, because you've seen enough of the truth that you should know better. your whole fucking country should know better, and yet you turn a blind eye to what's going on because you'd rather not think about how wrong you all are.

it makes me fucking sick.

[Corey]

The US does not kill you based on your race/religion/sex/etc. If you believe different, show me proof that they do.

waco.

From what I've read, the US went in there because of findings of drug and weapons stockpiling. There is no idication that the people died there because of their religion.

[starvingeyes]

not drugs, but weapon stockpiling. however, all the weapons there were legally purchased.

[Narbus]

look at narbus act like an asshole!

Pot. Kettle. Black.

the draft may not be in effect right now, but it has been put into use in the past and will be again.

Again, with the psychic visions, which matter both jack and shit to anyone with half a brain. If there's a movement to reinstate the draft, then we'll discuss it. There is no such movement.
And the "Well, they did it once," notion is a non-argument. There's a lot of things that have been done that won't be repeated.

prove saddam's doing it RIGHT NOW.

As was posted earlier by another poster, children are digging trenches in Iraq.
Children.
Do you really think that they are in full control of their actions?

where has the US built military installations near residential zones? Well for starters, I posted an article earlier about a cache of lethal weapons that's right next to a small city.

and if you've ever been to a major us coastal city you know there are naval bases and stations. I was in the one in San Diego last year while i was there on vacation.

how about the pentagon? civillians live and work near it. the white house is the same.

There are reserve garrisons or barracks in lots of US towns across the map as well.

Actually, many of those towns sprung up AFTER the military base was installed, so that the families didn't have to commute so far pre-highways and the automobile explosion. We didn't build houses near the shipyard so that people would be reluctant to bomb us. There are a lot of bases that existed before the mass construction and use of bombs.

narbus, the reason i say you're plugged in has nothing to do with you disagreeing with me and everything to do with the fact that you DO NOT QUESTION your government. I wouldn't mind if it seemed like you'd listen to anybody's tale of events besides the one the USA endorses but you plainly do not.

Actually, no. I do question my government. Often. I just have the good sense to actually think about it and not spew the rhetoric you feel is so necessary, and I have the good sense to realize exactly how effective it is to post said questions on a small internet forum dedicated to a semi-popular Canadian band who's had one or two hits in the US 10 years ago.

i do not think i know everything. in fact i know that i don't. i want to learn, i want people to challenge my beliefs. i could be wrong. but i want proof.

Bullshit. You want people to think like you. I have NEVER seen you even consider another person's view, be it the war or your ramblings on objectivism. NEVER. If I missed a thread somewhere, by all means point it out.

Now. In Iraq, the people who tow the party line and believe in their government very likely do not live in terror. Just the same as the people who live in amerika and support the government don't.

But critics of both governments are afraid of both governments. both have legitimate reasons to be afraid.

So, according to you, it's impossible to realize the government makes mistakes and still have faith they won't have you killed? You must live a very, very tense life.

in one breath you say that the only people who trust the iraqi warlord have been duped by mistruth and propaganda. then in your next breath you say that of course that could never happen in the united states!

And in one breath you damn the country and laws that let you scream and rant and keep breathing as 100% evil and wrong.

can't you see how that makes you look a little naive? you don't believe your government lies to you. if i show you proof that they do, you discard it without even thinking about it. because you don't think for one second that americans know how to lie.

I am fully aware that I am lied to. I am also fully aware that I'm a 23 year old in college in Nebraska who waits tables to pay his rent, and I'm aware that if THE MAN ever got on TV and spread THE TRUTH I would still have stupidly little power to do much about it.

see what i mean about the matrix, copper top?

No. I still see the tinfoil, solopist.

if saddam builds a base in the city, don't blow up the city. period. if that means you have to go to war the old fashioned way and send your troops in to occupy the base instead of just carpet bombing, then that's what you do.

Our government is in the business of keeping OUR people alive. You scream and rant that we stick our noses in everywhere, and how that's horrible and everyone should mind their own business, but by God if we don't put the needs of every other country in front of our own, then we're the Devil. Makes no sense to me.

the government WAS smaller when america was founded. i don't get your point.

And I don't get what that has to do with the legal inequalites that existed when this country was formed. So we're even.

why does saddam have to be disarmed? he doesn't. let him have his bombs, we let you have yours and you're clearly a greater threat to world peace and soveriegnity then he is.

Oh BULLSHIT. Who's there first and with the most money where there's a disaster somewhere? The US. Who spends BILLIONS yearly on foriegn aid? We do. Who

How many times have we dropped a bomb like this on another country? Twice, both in Japan. We've shown we don't like to use these weapons, Saddamn has shown that he would have very few of the same restraints.

this war is not the answer. i can't believe the flimsy ass reasons your scum sucking nazi fuck of a president has given you has convinced you that disarming saddam is worth half a million lives.

Half a million of them, versus how many lives when Saddam starts flinging bombs?

oh wait, yes i can. because the matrix has you. but that's not going to save your soul, my friend, because you've seen enough of the truth that you should know better. your whole fucking country should know better, and yet you turn a blind eye to what's going on because you'd rather not think about how wrong you all are.

it makes me fucking sick.

I hope it does. I hope it twists in your gut until you can't sleep and you cry and scream and rant and decide that you have to do whatever it takes, even if that means posting on an OLP message board. YOU GO, YOU REBEL!!

Fine. Here's the point, all nice and wrapped up.
No, the US does not have a perfect record. Far from it. We have made errors, often huge ones, in foreign affairs, wars, whatever. If you find an area, we have probably made a mistake there.
But, and this is a large one, there are a lot of things we did RIGHT. And it's your total refusal to see the US as anything BUT a giant, looming cloud of pure evil that pisses me off. You are painting this as one sided, and it's just not, and if you honestly think it is as much as you seem to, then I take back what I said earlier. There's no way you could've been bright enough to try the tinfoil hat.

I also realize that spewing the same tired rhetoric over and over in however many threads you want on a message board isn't going to do ANYTHING. At all. In fact, all your bullshit chest thumping posturing has done is make me dislike you, and by relation, your cause that much more. If you'd bother to drop your anti-"amerika" propoganda and actually focus on making rational points, then I'd care about it more, but as it is, you're a big, repetitive pinata, and I enjoy hitting you until mindless, bile-filled proselytism flows like so much sweet, sweet candy.

And finally, I also realize that if I had to pick where to live, here or Iraq, I would pick here in a heartbeat.

Which would you pick?

[Bandalero]

wow, these post are getting longer and longer.

[Axtech]

...and less and less worth reading.

[starvingeyes]

Again, with the psychic visions, which matter both jack and shit to anyone with half a brain. If there's a movement to reinstate the draft, then we'll discuss it. There is no such movement.

yes, there is. a bill was introduced last year to reinstitute it.

Actually, many of those towns sprung up AFTER the military base was installed, so that the families didn't have to commute so far pre-highways and the automobile explosion. We didn't build houses near the shipyard so that people would be reluctant to bomb us. There are a lot of bases that existed before the mass construction and use of bombs.

and how do you know that saddam hussen did not have a similar situtation?

Actually, no. I do question my government. Often. I just have the good sense to actually think about it and not spew the rhetoric you feel is so necessary, and I have the good sense to realize exactly how effective it is to post said questions on a small internet forum dedicated to a semi-popular Canadian band who's had one or two hits in the US 10 years ago.

yeah right. despite the fact that your government can produce no evidence showing that hussein has WMD, or even if he did would be able to use them on the US, and has lied to you repeatedly throughout this war campaign, you still support war to "disarm" him. disarm him of what? nice job "questioning" the government there.

And in one breath you damn the country and laws that let you scream and rant and keep breathing as 100% evil and wrong.

it is my natural right to scream and rant. the us does not "let" me do this, it simply does not try and prevent me. i'm supposed to thank them for not violating my rights? no, i don't think so. the right to free speech is not a privillege, it's an entitlement.

I am fully aware that I am lied to. I am also fully aware that I'm a 23 year old in college in Nebraska who waits tables to pay his rent, and I'm aware that if THE MAN ever got on TV and spread THE TRUTH I would still have stupidly little power to do much about it.

ahh political apathy. "it is lucky for rulers that men do not think" - hitler.

Our government is in the business of keeping OUR people alive. You scream and rant that we stick our noses in everywhere, and how that's horrible and everyone should mind their own business, but by God if we don't put the needs of every other country in front of our own, then we're the Devil. Makes no sense to me.

cities are non military targets. there is no reason to be anywhere near them with bombers in any war, ever. even if saddam had stockpiled anti-aircraft missiles in the cities, it shouldn't matter to the americans unless you're planning on attacking them.

if you break into my house to steal my TV from upstairs and i put my angry dog in the basement, why should it matter to you that my dog is in the basement?

Oh BULLSHIT. Who's there first and with the most money where there's a disaster somewhere? The US. Who spends BILLIONS yearly on foriegn aid? We do. Who

How many times have we dropped a bomb like this on another country? Twice, both in Japan. We've shown we don't like to use these weapons, Saddamn has shown that he would have very few of the same restraints.

hillarious considering you've already named a multitude of countries to go after next. policy analysts are now calling for every country that's ever glared at america to be bombed.

you are the biggest threat to world peace, ever.

Half a million of them, versus how many lives when Saddam starts flinging bombs?

those bombs you can't prove exist, right.

[mosaik]

[
Again, with the psychic visions, which matter both jack and shit to anyone with half a brain. If there's a movement to reinstate the draft, then we'll discuss it. There is no such movement.
And the "Well, they did it once," notion is a non-argument. There's a lot of things that have been done that won't be repeated.

Actually, there is a movement to reinstate it.

As was posted earlier by another poster, children are digging trenches in Iraq.
Children.
Do you really think that they are in full control of their actions?

Yes. Do you REALLY think that Saddam is FORCING them? And even if you THINK that, do you KNOW it? no. So what are you doing - using YOUR magical psychic powers?

Actually, many of those towns sprung up AFTER the military base was installed, so that the families didn't have to commute so far pre-highways and the automobile explosion. We didn't build houses near the shipyard so that people would be reluctant to bomb us. There are a lot of bases that existed before the mass construction and use of bombs.

Prove Saddam built his military bases for the reasons you suggest, and not so that his people wouldn't have to go as far to work.

Actually, no. I do question my government. Often. I just have the good sense to actually think about it and not spew the rhetoric you feel is so necessary, and I have the good sense to realize exactly how effective it is to post said questions on a small internet forum dedicated to a semi-popular Canadian band who's had one or two hits in the US 10 years ago.

I do think about it. Example: George W Bush says Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction and plans to use them. I say to support such a claim i need proof. George W Bush cannot provide any evidence that Saddam has bombs. George W Bush, if he is rational, cannot assume to know what is in Saddams head so he cannot know if Saddam would use the weapons IF he had any. Saddam has not used weapons like this recently, perhaps ever, and has not indicated in ANY MANOR that he will again.

So i say that this irrational war is being waged largely on what the voices in GW's head tell him. Even if his intentions are honest and not sinister as i truly believe, he is acting on what he PERCIEVES to be a threat. his ASSUMPTION is going to cost the lives of half a million iraqi's.

Now. You say you've considered all this and you don't agree with me. Believe it or not, I think you're a smart guy. You must have a very good reason to believe the president. What is it?

Bullshit. You want people to think like you. I have NEVER seen you even consider another person's view, be it the war or your ramblings on objectivism. NEVER. If I missed a thread somewhere, by all means point it out.

I just considered GWB's position. Just now. Right up there. The thing is, I consider everybody's POV and compare it to my own. most of the time, the other persons view does not hold up to the scrutiny. that is not my fault and that is not because i am not open minded.

So, according to you, it's impossible to realize the government makes mistakes and still have faith they won't have you killed? You must live a very, very tense life.

I don't believe in faith. Faith is something you cling to when you have no rational stance to believe in. It is not impossible to be critical of your government and not be bothered because of it to a certain point, but if you need me to find you examples of people who your government has fucked over because of who they hung out with or their skin color, i can and will.

And in one breath you damn the country and laws that let you scream and rant and keep breathing as 100% evil and wrong.

the country you live in has nothing to do with my human right to speak without censorship. that is a right i give to myself by being a rational mind. amerika does not give it to me and they cannot take it away.

I am fully aware that I am lied to. I am also fully aware that I'm a 23 year old in college in Nebraska who waits tables to pay his rent, and I'm aware that if THE MAN ever got on TV and spread THE TRUTH I would still have stupidly little power to do much about it.

it's that apathy that i hate. why does it matter if you can do anything about it? is that suddenly a reason to just let them do whatever they want? no. you do what i do, you don't pay tax, you stop voting, you don't speak to their operatives. you do everything you can to stop living in their world. you stop adding legitimacy to their regime.

Our government is in the business of keeping OUR people alive. You scream and rant that we stick our noses in everywhere, and how that's horrible and everyone should mind their own business, but by God if we don't put the needs of every other country in front of our own, then we're the Devil. Makes no sense to me.

that has nothing to do with putting the other nations needs in front of your own and everything to do with what is rational and what is right. Did the kids in the city that you blew up to hit the military target have anything to do with your war? No. Did the grocers? no.

Therefore it is irrational to kill them over it. This is the same as when OBL flew his airplanes into your buildings. No, it's worse.

Oh BULLSHIT. Who's there first and with the most money where there's a disaster somewhere? The US. Who spends BILLIONS yearly on foriegn aid? We do. Who

How many times have we dropped a bomb like this on another country? Twice, both in Japan. We've shown we don't like to use these weapons, Saddamn has shown that he would have very few of the same restraints.

a.) when has he shown that? you can't use "kuwait" as an example because you say that things that happened in the distant past (ie draft) are no indication that they will happen again. and if you were going to use kuwait, remember that Saddam invaded Kuwait to change the regime to one more favorable to his interests.... which is exactly what you are doing now in iraq.
b.) how many times have you dropped bombs on other countries? do you want the complete list or just the last 10 years?
c.) right now the greatest threat to world peace is, without a doubt, amerika. it's amerika that is starting an aggressive war without rational basis. the nazis did that once.

Half a million of them, versus how many lives when Saddam starts flinging bombs?

prove he's going to. prove he has the bombs. i can prove both about your country.

I hope it does. I hope it twists in your gut until you can't sleep and you cry and scream and rant and decide that you have to do whatever it takes, even if that means posting on an OLP message board. YOU GO, YOU REBEL!!

that's fantastic logic. you amerikans really ARE superior.

Fine. Here's the point, all nice and wrapped up.
No, the US does not have a perfect record. Far from it. We have made errors, often huge ones, in foreign affairs, wars, whatever. If you find an area, we have probably made a mistake there.
But, and this is a large one, there are a lot of things we did RIGHT. And it's your total refusal to see the US as anything BUT a giant, looming cloud of pure evil that pisses me off. You are painting this as one sided, and it's just not, and if you honestly think it is as much as you seem to, then I take back what I said earlier. There's no way you could've been bright enough to try the tinfoil hat.

i don't give a shit if you were fucking angels before 9/11/2001. That was then, this is now, you've already said in this thread that past events do not matter. Right now your whole agenda is about creating bloodlust in amerikans and killing iraqis. That's it. that's all you do now. You want me to meet you halfway, fine, i will, as soon as you open up your eyes a little bit.

I also realize that spewing the same tired rhetoric over and over in however many threads you want on a message board isn't going to do ANYTHING. At all. In fact, all your bullshit chest thumping posturing has done is make me dislike you, and by relation, your cause that much more. If you'd bother to drop your anti-"amerika" propoganda and actually focus on making rational points, then I'd care about it more, but as it is, you're a big, repetitive pinata, and I enjoy hitting you until mindless, bile-filled proselytism flows like so much sweet, sweet candy.

that's another thing with you amerikans, always thinking stuff doesn't matter if it doesn't change the world. this is a discussion board, buddy. i'm discussing. you think i should just drop it and STOP THINKING because it won't change the fact that we're going to war?

typically amerikan.

And finally, I also realize that if I had to pick where to live, here or Iraq, I would pick here in a heartbeat.

Which would you pick?

i'd pick a house boat of the atlantic coast where nobody can find me, least of all your government.

[Narbus]

Actually, there is a movement to reinstate it.

Actually, that bill was introduced as an anti-war protest. Rumsfeld says the logistics behind it actually make it more trouble than it's worth, and there's pretty much zero chance it will pass. It was a gesture, nothing more.

Yes. Do you REALLY think that Saddam is FORCING them? And even if you THINK that, do you KNOW it? no. So what are you doing - using YOUR magical psychic powers?

Actually, I'm remembering being a child, and thinking about how little I would enjoy digging trenches.
FYI: Saddam didn't speak a word of Bush's Monday night broadcast to his people, nor did he inform his people of the impending war or the 48 hour time frame. They had to find out by short wave radio intercepting foriegn news programs, as Hussein controls all media in his country.
Even if he isn't "forcing" in the typical sense of the word, he is certainly manipulating these children.

Prove Saddam built his military bases for the reasons you suggest, and not so that his people wouldn't have to go as far to work.

Hussein has shown that he has no respect for the lives of his people, time and time again. He builds palaces while his people starve, he kills the dissedents, and on and on. Logically, his motives have been consistently self servering, and therefore it makes little sense that he would suddenly be so benevolent towards his people with no ulterior motive.

I do think about it. Example: George W Bush says Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction and plans to use them. I say to support such a claim i need proof. George W Bush cannot provide any evidence that Saddam has bombs. George W Bush, if he is rational, cannot assume to know what is in Saddams head so he cannot know if Saddam would use the weapons IF he had any. Saddam has not used weapons like this recently, perhaps ever, and has not indicated in ANY MANOR that he will again.

So i say that this irrational war is being waged largely on what the voices in GW's head tell him. Even if his intentions are honest and not sinister as i truly believe, he is acting on what he PERCIEVES to be a threat. his ASSUMPTION is going to cost the lives of half a million iraqi's.

Now. You say you've considered all this and you don't agree with me. Believe it or not, I think you're a smart guy. You must have a very good reason to believe the president. What is it?

Ok, here's the deal. Mostly I've just been ranting against you because of the way in which you've chosen to present your argument. The cries of "amerika sucks" and "unplug yourself" are irrational to me. Very, very irrational, and I've yet to meet someone who says anything like this and is not so deeply rooted in their beliefs that they'll lash out mindlessly at anyone professing a different view. So far, you've done little to prove me wrong, but that's neither here nor there.
I don't actually believe the president, not fully. I do know that Hussein uses chemical weapons, and He has them now,and is willing to use them. But does he have weapons of mass destruction? I don't know, and I'm fully aware of how little time weapons inspectors really had to determine this.
I do think the President jumped the gun, here, especially with the entire world staring at Iraq. I greatly doubt that Hussein would have done ANYTHING with so much attention focused on him, so yes, I do think the president is hunting for reasons to invade, and I do think that it's in large part due to the oil in the region.
However, I also don't have access to the classified documents the president has, so I can't be completely sure.
I do think that Hussein is a monster, and one FAR worse than Bush. Bush has never ordered chemical attacks on a neighbor. He's never led a massacre, nor has he sent out the death squads to kill dissedents. I really don't think there's even room for comparison between the two.
Yes, there are things that I'm not loving about Bush's time in office. The Patriot Act, (which was largely castrated by Congess, actually) the TIPS thing (which was effectively killed), his stance on stem cell research, etc. But none of that is even in the same time zone as what Hussein does.

I just considered GWB's position. Just now. Right up there. The thing is, I consider everybody's POV and compare it to my own. most of the time, the other persons view does not hold up to the scrutiny. that is not my fault and that is not because i am not open minded.

Uh huh. I seem to recall having some issues with your POV holding up to similar scrutiny a while ago, but that's neither here nor there.
If you look for flaws, you will always find them. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, here.

I don't believe in faith. Faith is something you cling to when you have no rational stance to believe in. It is not impossible to be critical of your government and not be bothered because of it to a certain point, but if you need me to find you examples of people who your government has fucked over because of who they hung out with or their skin color, i can and will.

I also have a lot of example of people who haven't been fucked over because of who they hung out with or their skin color.

the country you live in has nothing to do with my human right to speak without censorship. that is a right i give to myself by being a rational mind. amerika does not give it to me and they cannot take it away.

Hussein does take it away from his people, though. He kills the outspoken, controls the media, and stacks his own elections. It has been taken away by a man and his government. This is just fact.

it's that apathy that i hate. why does it matter if you can do anything about it? is that suddenly a reason to just let them do whatever they want? no. you do what i do, you don't pay tax, you stop voting, you don't speak to their operatives. you do everything you can to stop living in their world. you stop adding legitimacy to their regime.

Because there are benefits to living here, whether you admit it or not. I don't fear that the goverment will kill me for saying the wrong thing or practicing the wrong religion. I have good roads to drive on, and the streets are pretty damn safe, and on and on. I like this place. Yes, there are problems. Like someone said in another thread, revolution and the overthrowing of democracy is rather extreme and doesn't actually solve anything. Revolutions are generally not peacefully resolved, and the aftermath is even less often all the people behaving themselves.

that has nothing to do with putting the other nations needs in front of your own and everything to do with what is rational and what is right. Did the kids in the city that you blew up to hit the military target have anything to do with your war? No. Did the grocers? no.

Therefore it is irrational to kill them over it. This is the same as when OBL flew his airplanes into your buildings. No, it's worse.

See, you're being all reasonable and I agree with you. I do think the inspectors weren't given enough time to actually do the job given to them, and I do think that carpet bombing is a filthy way to conduct a war.

Well, up until the OBL bit, now I'm back to thinking you're an emotionally manipultive wank.

a.) when has he shown that? you can't use "kuwait" as an example because you say that things that happened in the distant past (ie draft) are no indication that they will happen again. and if you were going to use kuwait, remember that Saddam invaded Kuwait to change the regime to one more favorable to his interests.... which is exactly what you are doing now in iraq.
b.) how many times have you dropped bombs on other countries? do you want the complete list or just the last 10 years?
c.) right now the greatest threat to world peace is, without a doubt, amerika. it's amerika that is starting an aggressive war without rational basis. the nazis did that once.

a) First, we got rid of the draft, was the point. We corrected that problem. You can't rant and rave about problems, then rant and rave when they're fixed. That's not rational. Saddam can't "correct" the problem of gassing a village, or invading a country like that. That kind of thing lingers.
b) The "issue" here is the weapons of mass destruction, the chemical and nuclear bombs. The US has shown great reluctance to use these kinds of things. Only twice ever have we used nuclear weapons in a war. Hussein has shown the lack of moral conscience that would indicate he is willing to use such weapons.
c) For the love of fuck. Dear everyone, stop comparing everything to the Nazi's. Godwin's Law, blah blah, I-don't-have-any-other-argument-cakes. So just stop it. The entirety of what actually happened during the Holocaust is only cheapened by your desperate posts, and the obvious appeal to emotion inherent in such a statement only serves to weaken your entire argument. So just fucking stop it.
c2) Again, Hussein is a monster, kills his people, not enough time for the inspectors, etc.

prove he's going to. prove he has the bombs. i can prove both about your country.

Actually, you can suggest the bit about the deaths. You can't prove it until it's over. Logic, and all.

that's fantastic logic. you amerikans really ARE superior.

And the logic of posting your anti-war rants on an OLP message board and thinking that it makes you somehow more politically active and therefore better than me? You lunatiks really ARE superior.

i don't give a shit if you were fucking angels before 9/11/2001. That was then, this is now, you've already said in this thread that past events do not matter. Right now your whole agenda is about creating bloodlust in amerikans and killing iraqis. That's it. that's all you do now. You want me to meet you halfway, fine, i will, as soon as you open up your eyes a little bit.

Actually, no, I said that things which aren't an issue aren't an issue, such as the non-existant draft. And our whole agenda is made of up making sure a crazy man has no big bombs, quits killing his people in some rather horrible ways, and making sure that our oil interests in the region are secure. So.

that's another thing with you amerikans, always thinking stuff doesn't matter if it doesn't change the world. this is a discussion board, buddy. i'm discussing. you think i should just drop it and STOP THINKING because it won't change the fact that we're going to war?

typically amerikan.

You claim you can't sleep because you're so worked up, you claim to hate the "apathy" I display, and you post on a message board. I accomplish nothing much, and neither do you. Sum total = 0 for each of us. Yet you claim to be so much better. I fail to understand.

i'd pick a house boat of the atlantic coast where nobody can find me, least of all your government.

Sorry, not the question I asked. If you had to pick to live in Iraq or the US (for the purposes of nitpicking, ignore the damage the forthcoming war will deal upon Iraq, we're only talking human rights issues) then where would you live?

[mosaik]

Actually, that bill was introduced as an anti-war protest. Rumsfeld says the logistics behind it actually make it more trouble than it's worth, and there's pretty much zero chance it will pass. It was a gesture, nothing more.

alright.

Actually, I'm remembering being a child, and thinking about how little I would enjoy digging trenches.
FYI: Saddam didn't speak a word of Bush's Monday night broadcast to his people, nor did he inform his people of the impending war or the 48 hour time frame. They had to find out by short wave radio intercepting foriegn news programs, as Hussein controls all media in his country.
Even if he isn't "forcing" in the typical sense of the word, he is certainly manipulating these children.

But you don't know that he forces the children.

I'm done defending saddam. that is not my inention, i don't want to defend him. He's no hero, either. He's a bad man. But that doesn't give you yanks the right to blow up his people.

Hussein has shown that he has no respect for the lives of his people, time and time again. He builds palaces while his people starve, he kills the dissedents, and on and on. Logically, his motives have been consistently self servering, and therefore it makes little sense that he would suddenly be so benevolent towards his people with no ulterior motive.

so Saddam holds up kids in front of his troops and that makes it moral for
you americans to shoot through the kids? no, it doesn't. wrong is wrong.

Ok, here's the deal. Mostly I've just been ranting against you because of the way in which you've chosen to present your argument. The cries of "amerika sucks" and "unplug yourself" are irrational to me. Very, very irrational, and I've yet to meet someone who says anything like this and is not so deeply rooted in their beliefs that they'll lash out mindlessly at anyone professing a different view.

how is my repeated assertion that you do not think for yourselves irrational? and instead of listening to me or thinking about what i post you have this bad habit of assuming things.

i don't lash out mindlessly. i use my mind.

I don't actually believe the president, not fully. I do know that Hussein uses chemical weapons, and He has them now,and is willing to use them. But does he have weapons of mass destruction? I don't know, and I'm fully aware of how little time weapons inspectors really had to determine this.
I do think the President jumped the gun, here, especially with the entire world staring at Iraq. I greatly doubt that Hussein would have done ANYTHING with so much attention focused on him, so yes, I do think the president is hunting for reasons to invade, and I do think that it's in large part due to the oil in the region.
However, I also don't have access to the classified documents the president has, so I can't be completely sure.
I do think that Hussein is a monster, and one FAR worse than Bush. Bush has never ordered chemical attacks on a neighbor. He's never led a massacre, nor has he sent out the death squads to kill dissedents. I really don't think there's even room for comparison between the two.
Yes, there are things that I'm not loving about Bush's time in office. The Patriot Act, (which was largely castrated by Congess, actually) the TIPS thing (which was effectively killed), his stance on stem cell research, etc. But none of that is even in the same time zone as what Hussein does.

So, basically, you're not sure. But oh well. Let's kill a half million arabs. You believe Hussein is a monster, you believe bush is a hero. you don't consider ordering the legalized murder of a half million human beings to be wrong. and you have no rational basis for that.

Uh huh. I seem to recall having some issues with your POV holding up to similar scrutiny a while ago, but that's neither here nor there.

find some flaws for me in what i believe. i'm serious. if there's something wrong with my thinking then i want to correct it.

Hussein does take it away from his people, though. He kills the outspoken, controls the media, and stacks his own elections. It has been taken away by a man and his government. This is just fact.

He doesn't take it away, you can't take it away. But he punishes those who act on their natural rights. So does GWB. He imprisions/terrorizes the outspken, controls the media and steals his own elections. But he cannot suspend my right to criticize him.

Because there are benefits to living here, whether you admit it or not. I don't fear that the goverment will kill me for saying the wrong thing or practicing the wrong religion. I have good roads to drive on, and the streets are pretty damn safe, and on and on. I like this place. Yes, there are problems. Like someone said in another thread, revolution and the overthrowing of democracy is rather extreme and doesn't actually solve anything. Revolutions are generally not peacefully resolved, and the aftermath is even less often all the people behaving themselves.

Why do you assume that the only people in the world who know how to pave roads or clean up sewers know how because they were elected?

demockracy doesn't work. face it. we don't need the state, we never have, and if instead of pledging allegiance to the flag in the morning you tried the application of reason you'd see that too.

Well, up until the OBL bit, now I'm back to thinking you're an emotionally manipultive wank.

Why? What's the difference between cluster bombing families and blowing up buildings filled with families?

a) First, we got rid of the draft, was the point. We corrected that problem. You can't rant and rave about problems, then rant and rave when they're fixed. That's not rational. Saddam can't "correct" the problem of gassing a village, or invading a country like that. That kind of thing lingers.

sort of like how you're going to invade iraq. it's probably going to linger. can't be easily corrected. and you can rant and rave about a problem and the solution if the problem still isn't fixed in a rational way.

b) The "issue" here is the weapons of mass destruction, the chemical and nuclear bombs. The US has shown great reluctance to use these kinds of things. Only twice ever have we used nuclear weapons in a war. Hussein has shown the lack of moral conscience that would indicate he is willing to use such weapons.

so has bush. again, it astounds me that you don't consider the people who are about to die to be humans. you don't care about them. it's not immoral to blow them up, except when saddam does it. really good logic there.

c) For the love of fuck. Dear everyone, stop comparing everything to the Nazi's. Godwin's Law, blah blah, I-don't-have-any-other-argument-cakes. So just stop it. The entirety of what actually happened during the Holocaust is only cheapened by your desperate posts, and the obvious appeal to emotion inherent in such a statement only serves to weaken your entire argument. So just fucking stop it.

read my other post. you are the new nazis. i can support this rationally.

Actually, you can suggest the bit about the deaths. You can't prove it until it's over. Logic, and all.

I can prove that amerika has the bombs and i can prove that they will use them. how many they will kill remains to be seen. you cannot prove that saddam is a.) armed or b.) dangerous.

And the logic of posting your anti-war rants on an OLP message board and thinking that it makes you somehow more politically active and therefore better than me? You lunatiks really ARE superior.

the biggest difference between you and I is that i think where you do not. you suggest that since my posting here doesn't change the fact that war is inevitable, i should stop thinking. i disagree. thinking is what makes me human.

Actually, no, I said that things which aren't an issue aren't an issue, such as the non-existant draft. And our whole agenda is made of up making sure a crazy man has no big bombs, quits killing his people in some rather horrible ways, and making sure that our oil interests in the region are secure. So.

Bush is crazy and he has big bombs. You're going to kill Saddams people in a horrible way for him.

You claim you can't sleep because you're so worked up, you claim to hate the "apathy" I display, and you post on a message board. I accomplish nothing much, and neither do you. Sum total = 0 for each of us. Yet you claim to be so much better. I fail to understand.

first of all i've never said i'm any better then you or anybody else. but your logic is as follows : i can't change anything so i will not think or ask questions, i will simply obey my government and lash out at all who oppose.

i'd live in iraq. they're primed for a revolution. i'd like to be part of that. spitting in THE MAN'S face would be great.

[starvingeyes]

Actually, I'm remembering being a child, and thinking about how little I would enjoy digging trenches.

those children were digging trenches outside of their school in bagdad. this is to give them a place to hide when america bombs the blue fuck out of the city.

I don't actually believe the president, not fully. I do know that Hussein uses chemical weapons, and He has them now,and is willing to use them. But does he have weapons of mass destruction? I don't know, and I'm fully aware of how little time weapons inspectors really had to determine this.

1. saddam hussein is thought by your us army college not to be responsible for the gassing of the kurds. in fact, there is evidence to support the contrary. [ <a href ="http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/helms.html"> source</a> ]

2. the fox news report you just posted gives no evidence to support the assertion that hussein has armed his troops with chemical weapons. this reeks of a set up. fact: it is possible, even likely, that the us military would use nerve agents on it's own troops to implicate saddam. <a href ="http://www.cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cgi?/news/1999/10/19/gulfwar991018">you've done something like it before</a>. and you are making all soldiers take a small pox/anthrax vaccine <a href ="http://www.909shot.com/Newsletters/spsmallpox.htm">which can kill you</a>.

hmm.

[Bandalero]

Actually, I'm remembering being a child, and thinking about how little I would enjoy digging trenches.

those children were digging trenches outside of their school in bagdad. this is to give them a place to hide when america bombs the blue fuck out of the city.

actually no the school master himself said these kids are willing to fight the us, as in guns and shooting and killing. don't cry about their lives when they are killed, they are an enemy.

[mosaik]

reno they're defending themselves. you come into their homes & schools with guns and you expect them to lie down and take it.

YOU are the agressor here. what you do is NOT in self-defense.

[Bandalero]

actually no they are enemy....is not sadamn asking "for EVERY Iraqi to stand up against the american evil!" what do you think those kids are doing? they're kids, they have no buisness near a gun yet alone firing one. they are hearing sadamns call and willingly fighting...and when you fight for your country and it's beliefs, you are risking death. read pattons quote, it's all about making the other poor son of a bitch die for his country...not the other way around.

[mosaik]

well. if you stay out of iraq then the kids won't have to pick the guns up, will they?

[Corey]

I would expect someone who believes that everyone is capable of making decisions for themselves (drinking, sex, drugs) at any age wouldn't make a distinction of them being military casualties as well. Stop using the term children if you really truly believe that.

[Bandalero]

if they just ignored a mad man's demand for them to pick up guns they are clear from danger.

[mosaik]

reno you can't say that for sure and you know it.

corey, they can make their own decisions about fighting. but your country isn't letting them. they're invading.

[Bandalero]

that's right they are in harms way because the Iraqi government won't allow them to leave bagdad. that doesn't mean you should fight, just walk up to ally toorps and demand that you get out of that hell hole. remember, if your a kid and not holding a gun your not an enemy.