If this is what you want your future to be like...
yep. and i'm all for leading a troupe of angry anarchists right to their doorsteps and blowing them all off the face of the earth if we find out they've done some wrong.
but simply keeping to yourself and thinking that the white race is superior is not a crime. and hiring based on those inclinations isn't one either.
or at least it shouldn't be.
but simply keeping to yourself and thinking that the white race is superior is not a crime. and hiring based on those inclinations isn't one either.
or at least it shouldn't be.
-
Solidarity 9-6347
- Posts: 1960
- Joined: 3/13/2002, 6:14 pm
- Location: Ann Barbor, MI
- Contact:
the hardest thing that a person...im talking about me in particular, will ever have to come to terms with is that each opinion is valid in its own right...i am in no way defending racism because thats not my belief, but it may be someone elses. i however have a problem with one person truly believeing that their opinion is the only right one and then forcing their will onto everyone within their influence. who is to say that your way is the right one? in my opinion, we aren't born with "right" and "wrong", it all stems from empathy and basic survival instincts. eventually an individual realizes that they don't want something done to them so in turn they decide not to do it to others. if you want to help someone, by all means go ahead, but in my opinion it would be a little fascist to force everyone else to do the same.
did that make any sense?
did that make any sense?
<3 Mademoiselle Pamplemousse
~The world would be a better place if only more things were made out of statue~
~The world would be a better place if only more things were made out of statue~
-
Solidarity 9-6347
- Posts: 1960
- Joined: 3/13/2002, 6:14 pm
- Location: Ann Barbor, MI
- Contact:
arguing about politics is pretty much the same as arguing about religion, except nowadays the latter is taboo in society. most people wouldn't touch religion bashing with a 10 foot pole because they understand that what they believe has just about the same chance of being wrong as the opposing person's beliefs. i think the same thing applies to politics.
just for tangent's sake, during FAP's today (individual end of the semester presentations), a girl i know was talking about a book called "boomeritis" which was basically about a hirearchy of consciousness (color coded) starting off with archaic, moving up to egotistical, up to controlling, to holistic, blah blah blah. we ended up having a discussion about whether each "tier" was necessarily above another, whether each was valid in its own right. who is to say that "archaic consciousness" is a lower form than "holistic consciousness"? its really all a matter of opinion.
just for tangent's sake, during FAP's today (individual end of the semester presentations), a girl i know was talking about a book called "boomeritis" which was basically about a hirearchy of consciousness (color coded) starting off with archaic, moving up to egotistical, up to controlling, to holistic, blah blah blah. we ended up having a discussion about whether each "tier" was necessarily above another, whether each was valid in its own right. who is to say that "archaic consciousness" is a lower form than "holistic consciousness"? its really all a matter of opinion.
<3 Mademoiselle Pamplemousse
~The world would be a better place if only more things were made out of statue~
~The world would be a better place if only more things were made out of statue~
-
Sufjan Stevens
- Posts: 6738
- Joined: 3/17/2002, 12:25 pm
- Location: Detroit, MI
Idealist wrote:if you want to help someone, by all means go ahead, but in my opinion it would be a little fascist to force everyone else to do the same.
Smartest thing I've read in this thread.
I faced death. I went in with my arms swinging. But I heard my own breath and had to face that I'm still living. I'm still flesh. I hold on to awful feelings. I'm not dead... My chest still draws breath. I hold it. I'm buoyant. There's no end.
Ah, but there has to be a higher standard. I am NOT okay with allowing for oppression and violence against innocents just because someone has a deeply held belief that their race is superior and intend to act upon it. I'm not a believer in absolute moral rights and wrongs, but I am a believer in absolute human rights and wrongs. There is no justification for violence and oppression, be it race-based or otherwise. In this case, I AM right and they ARE wrong. There are many other things I strongly believe in, but at the same time am willing to admit that other opinions than mine are equally valid - religion and politics for example. With oppression and violence - the outer markings of hatred - I am quite certain that in terms of human society these are wrongs. There is no valid data in any field, be it ethical, philosophical, scientific, logical, or anything else to lend moral support to these behaviors. In this, as in almost NO other things, I am quite certain that MY opinion is the right one, and I challenge any of you to provide even cursory evidence otherwise. The best moral arguments for racism (and other forms of oppression) that history and modern society have had to offer have all been debunked. Racism is WRONG.
Affirmative Action, if it can be proved to be a racist policy, would therefore also be wrong. But up until now in this discussion, that hasn't been proven. No evidence has even been presented, just abstract theory. I have argued for it in the past, but I remain undecided on my ultimate opinion on the matter. It merits more research by me that I will not have the time to do until after finals. For now, I will leave it for myself undecided.
Affirmative Action, if it can be proved to be a racist policy, would therefore also be wrong. But up until now in this discussion, that hasn't been proven. No evidence has even been presented, just abstract theory. I have argued for it in the past, but I remain undecided on my ultimate opinion on the matter. It merits more research by me that I will not have the time to do until after finals. For now, I will leave it for myself undecided.
-
Sufjan Stevens
- Posts: 6738
- Joined: 3/17/2002, 12:25 pm
- Location: Detroit, MI
Hey, when you have Affirmative Action screw you out of a spot in college or leave you rejected for a job because quotas need to be filled, then your opinion will change. I used to think it was fine and dandy, until I saw how wrong it really is. When dumber people get into college before I do because they have a different skin pigment, there's something corrupt with it.
Please Aerin, justify how a middle-class Polynesian kid with lower grades and test scores than I gets into the college of my choice before I do. We went to the same school, I took tougher classes, I had more extracurricular activities, I had a higher GPA, and I had better test scores, yet I got REJECTED (not put on the wait list, but flat out rejected) from U of M, and he got in without being put on the waiting list. And what makes it better is, we applied at the same time. So please, justify my situation. Tell me what makes him more deserving of this spot in college more than I am.
Please Aerin, justify how a middle-class Polynesian kid with lower grades and test scores than I gets into the college of my choice before I do. We went to the same school, I took tougher classes, I had more extracurricular activities, I had a higher GPA, and I had better test scores, yet I got REJECTED (not put on the wait list, but flat out rejected) from U of M, and he got in without being put on the waiting list. And what makes it better is, we applied at the same time. So please, justify my situation. Tell me what makes him more deserving of this spot in college more than I am.
I faced death. I went in with my arms swinging. But I heard my own breath and had to face that I'm still living. I'm still flesh. I hold on to awful feelings. I'm not dead... My chest still draws breath. I hold it. I'm buoyant. There's no end.
For Your Lungs Only wrote:Hey, when you have Affirmative Action screw you out of a spot in college or leave you rejected for a job because quotas need to be filled, then your opinion will change. I used to think it was fine and dandy, until I saw how wrong it really is. When dumber people get into college before I do because they have a different skin pigment, there's something corrupt with it.
Please Aerin, justify how a middle-class Polynesian kid with lower grades and test scores than I gets into the college of my choice before I do. We went to the same school, I took tougher classes, I had more extracurricular activities, I had a higher GPA, and I had better test scores, yet I got REJECTED (not put on the wait list, but flat out rejected) from U of M, and he got in without being put on the waiting list. And what makes it better is, we applied at the same time. So please, justify my situation. Tell me what makes him more deserving of this spot in college more than I am.
I can't justify your situation, because I wasn't there at U of M when those two decisions were made. People are not all accepted and rejected at colleges on the same terms, and neither you nor I know their criteria. There are also different reviewers of applications who may make different choices. And believe me, I know plenty of stupid people, white and black, male and female, rich and poor, at my school, and and also some very VERY intelligent people who didn't get in. I don't know why; that's just the way it is.
The point is, I'm asking for evidence. Governmental documents, unbiased reports, proof. I sympathize with you; it sucks to be rejected. Perhaps you're right and it was racially motivated by AA-imposed quotas, but you can't prove that and so I'm afraid I can't use your situation as a sound basis for an argument either for or against AA.
" But as soon as a group sets itself up to be the final moral arbiter of other people's actions, especially when its members believe they have discovered absolute standards of right and wrong, it is the beginning of the end of tolerance and thus, reason and rationality. " - Michael Shermer
goddamn that man is brilliant.
no. but actions taken/motivated by racism may be. there is nothing wrong with racist thought, only the things people do after they start thinking racist thoughts (ie murder).
you cannot prosecute a man for the crime of "racism". That is a thought crime. not you nor i can judge a mans thoughts or opinions to be right and wrong, it's just like was already stated in this thread - who am i to say that white people aren't superior? it may be my opinion that we are all equals, but another man may feel just as strongly that we are not. how do we judge who is right?
we can't. moral standards don't exist in nature. therefore no mans thoughts are any more "right" or "wrong" then any others. right and wrong are just values you assign based on your own personal code. it's one thing to hold them, but it's entirely different to act on them.
the moment you decide to prosecute a person for racism or force him to hire people of colour despite his desire to hire only whites, it is you who are acting irrationaly. in this circumstance, the racist would be the one who was "morally right" - if such a thing exists.[/quote]
goddamn that man is brilliant.
Aerin wrote:Racism is WRONG.
no. but actions taken/motivated by racism may be. there is nothing wrong with racist thought, only the things people do after they start thinking racist thoughts (ie murder).
you cannot prosecute a man for the crime of "racism". That is a thought crime. not you nor i can judge a mans thoughts or opinions to be right and wrong, it's just like was already stated in this thread - who am i to say that white people aren't superior? it may be my opinion that we are all equals, but another man may feel just as strongly that we are not. how do we judge who is right?
we can't. moral standards don't exist in nature. therefore no mans thoughts are any more "right" or "wrong" then any others. right and wrong are just values you assign based on your own personal code. it's one thing to hold them, but it's entirely different to act on them.
the moment you decide to prosecute a person for racism or force him to hire people of colour despite his desire to hire only whites, it is you who are acting irrationaly. in this circumstance, the racist would be the one who was "morally right" - if such a thing exists.[/quote]
-
starvingeyes
- Posts: 2009
- Joined: 5/8/2002, 3:44 pm
- Location: california's not very far
Aerin wrote:There is no justification for violence and oppression, be it race-based or otherwise.
interesting. but without using violence, how do you intend to force racists to refrain from allowing their prejudices to affect their hiring practice? how do you intend to force me to pay income tax? how do you intend to force an violator of a municipal smoking ban to pay his fine?
you are a believer in the state. the state is violence. obviously, you believe there is some justification for violence and opression. tell me, what is it?
crystal baller wrote:" But as soon as a group sets itself up to be the final moral arbiter of other people's actions, especially when its members believe they have discovered absolute standards of right and wrong, it is the beginning of the end of tolerance and thus, reason and rationality. " - Michael Shermer
goddamn that man is brilliant.
Aren't you the poster formerly known as Doug Bin Laden, or is that Starving eyes?
God how I wish someone would disable that nick changing function.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
Okay, aren't you the guy that said "morality is black and white, there is no middle ground, the following things are immoral..." in that christina aguilera thread quite a while back? If you've changed your mind, about all that, then yay.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
yeah i seem to remeber a comment about there is only good and evil, no in between, it had to do with a comment i made about choosingthe lesser of evils
"How can we justify spending so much on destruction and so little on life?" Matthew Good
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
i am in fact that guy. and i have changed my mind about black and white morality, but not on rational action.
EDIT: elaboration: Shermer wrote an essay critiquing, of all people, ayn rand. i read it on the recommendation of a person trying to debunk objectivist philosophy. i found that i agreed with most of what shermer said, and when i got to the line that i quoted i found i had no logical deflection for it. so i modified my beliefs.
that's learning.
EDIT: elaboration: Shermer wrote an essay critiquing, of all people, ayn rand. i read it on the recommendation of a person trying to debunk objectivist philosophy. i found that i agreed with most of what shermer said, and when i got to the line that i quoted i found i had no logical deflection for it. so i modified my beliefs.
that's learning.
Last edited by mosaik on 5/29/2003, 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
