ClumsyMonkey.net

america was founded on freedom. now it is a horrible warmongering place.

i'm not going to debate spelling with you, man. amerika, america, it's the same state full of killers either way.

Doug Bin Laden wrote:america was founded on freedom.

Only if you were a white, land owning, male. Do your history.

the government was a lot smaller back then.

What? How on Earth do you think that matters? Unless you were a white land-owning male you had no vote. If you were black, you didn't even count as a full person. What does the size of government have to do with anything?

Doug Bin Laden wrote:the poetry is bang on.

and i say it for me, it's got nothing to do with the fucking hippies.

shut the fuck up about my numbers, go ahead and do a search and you'll find a thousand sites supporting them. watch the godamn tube in a week and see if you can dispute them then.

here are some numbers for you doug...10% of all misiles in Gulf War I were "smart Bombs". this time around 90% of all munitions are "Smart Bombs".

but you know what describe innocent civilian for me doug...please. cause i saw on the "tube" that middle school kids in Bagdad are willingly digging trenches. no big deal right, but the headmaster of this school was asked "what are these kids doing?" he replied "they're getting ready for the war, they are willing to fight the US here." suprised the reporter asked "like phisically, as in shotting guns and what not?" the headmaster just said yes. then they showed a gunsmith shop selling guns to regular people, and when asked they said they will shoot USA. they sure as hell are not innocent school children and people, as far as i'm concerned if anyone of any age/gneder/color, points a gun at our soldiers during this, they are the enemy and not innocent civilians. so yeah, let's have the media show bodies of school children and regular clothed people dead from the evil americans without showing them when they were found...with a loaded gun in their hands.

this country was forged from wars doug, against indians when they got here, against french and against their own british relatives. how easily you forget about things like this.

"smart bombs" were used in Afghanistan and they were so fuckin smart, they killed innocent civilians.. not to mention the Canadian soldiers on training exercises..

innocent people were the result of not updated intel, there were targets on that location however, they had left, intel did not update that info.

as for the canadians, they were firing rounds, as a training excercise. the guys in the plane thought it was enemy fire on them, they asked for permission to shoot, it was denied, the saw fire again, and they attacked without permission. they should be found guilty for incompetence. however talking to a former fighterpilot, it is very hard to tell the difference between live fire going up at planes and shots going across the ground.

reno those kids are fighting for their fucking LIVES!

c'mon, tell me most amerikans aren't going to shoot the iraqi first and ask questions later? if i'm going to go down to some cowardly fuck, i want to do it with a gun in my hand so i know i went down kicking and screaming and swearing at THE MAN.

let's not sugar coat this shit. war is murder. those kids have the right to defend themselves. american ain't a fucking liberator, they're the fucking invaders.

reno_ruelas wrote:innocent people were the result of not updated intel, there were targets on that location however, they had left, intel did not update that info.

so what makes this situation different?
and what about the fact that not ALL intel gathered is gonna be true or remotely close to true?

for example.. a month or a month and a half ago.. "5 individuals of pakistani descent illegaly crossed the border into the states in a curious manner"
pres bush got involved and talked about getting to the bottom of the situation.. the whole thing turned out to be false
the intel was right on then.
the intel is gonna fuck up here too.. and some "smart bomb" is gonna end up being dropped where it shouldnt and innocent ppl are gonna die..

bullshit, no one is going to shoot an INNOCENT kid that is only going to school and nothing else. you and i both know that. the fact is they're spoon fed anti-american shit all the time, at school and at home, that's what makes them tick. Sadamn wants to brainwash these kids into fighting so that he can deliever their dead bodies to their parents and say "Americans killed your kid" so that he can contimue brewing the anti-american ideals that he installs into peoples minds. their blood is on his hands for not accepting his situation. it's him that is not following 1441, it's him that is not selling his oil for food but rather for munitions and money for that kind of shit, it is because of him that these so called innocent people will die.

sandman, this doesn't make the situation different. i can promise you that the best intel agents are looking at Iraq and that these reports are triple checked and backed up with evidence. but you know what? accidents happen. there's not an army that intentionally aims at inocent lives. those days are gone, and any truly innocent peoples that die in a result of this war will be because of accidents. war isn't clean cut and everything that is planned perfectly doesn't go right as planned.

if a police man comes into my home and orders me to pay a speeding ticket and i refuse, and he therefore assaults me and causes harm to my person while attempting to enforce the law, am i suddenly guilty of abusing myself?

no. because the police man has no rational right to be in my home in the first place. my refusing to go along with his irrational and immoral demands does not make me guilty.

the UN is not a one world government. They do not have the right to tell Saddam how to govern his nation. If they pursue force after he refuses to meet their irrational demands then they are STILL to blame.

when you lose a war you are surrendering uncondionally to that country. in this case it was the UN. Understand that it is there obligation to the world to seek out peace all over the world. and that may come after war, the fact that sadamn doesn't comply fully with the UN there should be reprocussions. it's been 12 years, and now it comes down to war.

Doug Bin Laden wrote:reno those kids are fighting for their fucking LIVES!

Because the leader of their country is making them. If he were such a great guy we should "save" then wouldn't he care about his people and ask them to leave the country during a war, or at least make sure military installations weren't built in residental areas? But no. He does neither. In fact, he INTENTIONALLY builds military installations near residental areas.

c'mon, tell me most amerikans aren't going to shoot the iraqi first and ask questions later? if i'm going to go down to some cowardly fuck, i want to do it with a gun in my hand so i know i went down kicking and screaming and swearing at THE MAN.

1. Again with the K. Do you really think that matters at all?
2. THE MAN? You honestly believe that "THE MAN" is keepin' these people down, yo? Jesus, grow up.

let's not sugar coat this shit.

Yes. Let's not. Saddam is killing his people. They live in terror of him. The ones who live are fed propoganda until they don't even know the truth anymore and believe whatever he spoon feeds them. He has chemical weapons, and the will to use them. There's evidence he tried to assassinate George Bush Sr, against the rules of the Geneva Convention, and the UN did nothing. He's a human rights nightmare, a lying, manipulative, murdering, forceful, whatever-you-want-to-call-it beast.

ps: Don't for a second think that I don't notice you "forgetting" to address the points you can't argue with. I've seen you do it before, I'm sure you'll do it again, and it's a rather cowardly way to actually participate in a discussion.

narbus, cut the crocodile tears.

Let's not. Saddam is killing his people. They live in terror of him. The ones who live are fed propoganda until they don't even know the truth anymore and believe whatever he spoon feeds them. He has chemical weapons, and the will to use them. There's evidence he tried to assassinate George Bush Sr, against the rules of the Geneva Convention, and the UN did nothing. He's a human rights nightmare, a lying, manipulative, murdering, forceful, whatever-you-want-to-call-it beast.

bullshit.

it says in the geneva convention that bombing civillian infrastructure is a war crime. you bombed civillian infrastructure in afghanistan. you do not care about war crimes. you only invoke them when neccessary. hypocrite.

secondly. you do not care if innocent iraqui people die if americans kill them, but apparently if hussein does. hypocrite again.

he's a beast, but so is bush. pot calling the kettle black, much?

intentionally, i'm sure it reads intentionally. cause the kurds, they walked back into their villages and found them in ruins. and now they have a little city up north called..."saddam city." i'm sure he did that accidentilly didn't he?

reno when i lose a fist fight and i give the bully money to leave me alone, and he comes back for it everyday am i suddenly taking an immoral action when i refuse to pay him any longer?

the un/us is STILL wrong.

narbus:

Because the leader of their country is making them.

Oh, you mean like a draft?

In fact, he INTENTIONALLY builds military installations near residental areas.

So does the USA.

1. Again with the K. Do you really think that matters at all?
2. THE MAN? You honestly believe that "THE MAN" is keepin' these people down, yo? Jesus, grow up

1. It obviously does to your amerikan ass.
2. Yes. THE MAN is holding us all down. If you don't agree how about you try to debate that instead of making fun.

Yes. Let's not. Saddam is killing his people. They live in terror of him. The ones who live are fed propoganda until they don't even know the truth anymore and believe whatever he spoon feeds them. He has chemical weapons, and the will to use them. There's evidence he tried to assassinate George Bush Sr, against the rules of the Geneva Convention, and the UN did nothing. He's a human rights nightmare, a lying, manipulative, murdering, forceful, whatever-you-want-to-call-it beast.

Let's do this sentance by sentance. GWB has killed his people. They live in terror of him. The ones who don't have bought into the propaganda they've been fed since preschool, and when the truth is shown to them they hide their eyes so they can continue to believe in their masters. GWB has violated the Geneva Convention and the UN did nothing. He is a human rights nightmare, a lying, manipulative, murdering, forceful, whatever-you-want-to-call-it beast.

ps. what are you talking about? i've addressed all of your points. if you want me to address one again, so be it, just tell me which.

Doug Bin Laden wrote:reno when i lose a fist fight and i give the bully money to leave me alone, and he comes back for it everyday am i suddenly taking an immoral action when i refuse to pay him any longer?

the un/us is STILL wrong.

narbus:

Because the leader of their country is making them.

Oh, you mean like a draft?

that'sthe way wars are fought, and that's the way wars will always be fought, the losing country has to deal with what the winner says so. and for the most part the UN is looking after the people in Iraq and not it's dictator.

i'm suprised that you disliked the draft. in case you haven't noticed, the draft ultimately took alot of it's peoples from Afro-America and Hispanics. what were the chances of you getting drafted? less of a chance then mine that's for sure.

reno of course we're opposed to the draft. it's about the worst thing the state does.

ok then good, cause the draft is horrible. what about Iraq and the way they send teenagers to fight? do you agree with that?