theodicy

[One-Eye]

If there is a god, and he/she/it is so good, why is there evil?

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Thoughts?

I personally think that it's because the first Matrix was perfect, but humans rejected it because... oh, nevermind.

[Narbus]

If there is a god, and he/she/it is so good, why is there evil?

You'll first have to define "evil."

[One-Eye]

Good point. Okay, the two major definitions: 1) "Acts of God" like earthquakes/volcanos/hurricanes/etc. 2) The tendency of people to hurt other people physically, emotionally, psychologically, sexually, etc. (I don't buy the free will argument, because most people want to do good but end up doing cruel things anyway; also, humans didn't invent cruelty, so if there's a god who created everything, he must have also created evil, making him, at least in part, evil).

[Narbus]

How is an "act of God" evil? It sucks, yes, but it's just the eventual result of the systems of weather and techtonic motion. It's in no way sentient, so there's no intent behind it, so there's no "evil." It just is.

For the second part, let's say I rob a store, and during the trial two jurors fall in love and marry. So you'd classify my act as evil, but the end result produced something good. So which is it?

[One-Eye]

A destructive "Act of God" would indicate, if there were a god, that he/she/it is willing to wantonly destroy lives for no apparent reason. Why worship such a god?

As for your second example, you argue that evil is okay as long as some good comes out of it, which I don't buy.

Evil is hard to quantify. My main point here is that the very existence of bad/unhappiness/evil in the world means that if there is a god, he is not a good god. An indifferent god, perhaps, but not a good one.

[Narbus]

First: An act of God is not an "act of God." It's just nature. You may as well say poop, or bleeding is evil.

Second: I didn't say that evil is okay as long as good comes out of it. I did say that life is considerably more complex than this oft-abused question puts forth, and that trying to line everything up in neat little columns of "Good" and "Evil" doesn't work.

Third: "A life without tragedy would not be worth living." - Edward Abbey.
We have to have bad things to understand what good things are. You can't have one without the other.

[robcore]

God was the one who made it that way. If he's God, he's all powerful. That means he could have made things very different. How about this?

either: God is omnipotent and has made a plan for all of us. Hence, before we were born, he knew whether or not we would go to hell. He made the choice to create us therefore he made the choice to send us to hell. That rules out us having free will.

or

God does not know which actions we will take next, therefore not making him omnipotent. Therefore he is a liar.

dicsuss

[thirdhour]

Whoa, rob...!

I don't really think we have free will. We have choices, but every single thing that has happened to us in the past will affect those. Just the same way, it would be impossible for us to foresee what someone else would do, even if we know every single thing that has happened to them in their life. The smallest, most insignificant thing could affect someone's actions in the future. People don't have the free will to kill someone, but they do have morals, and therefore won't. They made the choice to do so knowing they would have to accept the consequences, affecting the choice they made.

There has to be bad that happens to every person. If one knows not sadness, one will not recognize happiness. Emotions are relative. We most certainly are not elated when we eat breakfast every morning, but someone who is starving would be ecstatic to receive the same thing. Bad things make us appreciate good things. That being said, I believe that one person should not receive all good things and another receive all bad things. There really has to be a balance.


"Had I not been subject to darkness, I would have not seen the light." Damnit, I can't remember who said that...

[Sufjan Stevens]

As easy as it would be to believe that our lives have been predetermined and planned out for us by a higher power, it's rather hard to buy into that thought process.

Even though each decision that we've made in the past and everything we've experienced will affect how we choose something in the future, that doesn't mean we don't have free will. It was our will to make certain decisions in the past, and our will helps us make decisions in the present. Just because we have tendancies from previous occurances does not mean our lives have been decided before we were born, it just means certain things hit us differently and make us rethink doing certain things in the future.

And what this discussion hinges on is if we actually believe there is a God. Sure, it's nice to believe in that, but there's no concrete proof, just words that people are supposed to subscribe into believing.

And about God controlling everything good and bad that happens in life is just a farce. Just because bad things happen doesn't mean there is no God. If your mom yelled at you when you were a child for dropping a glass plate, that doesn't necessarily equate to her not loving you and her not being your real mother. As it's been said before, bad things need to happen, or else all of us would live a mundane life and never die, because death is sad.

That's just what I think.

[thirdhour]

You make an excellent point.

Yeah, I don't think our lives are planned out at birth, far from that. But we are born with the tendancies and skills to respond to certain situations in a specific way. How we respond will affect our future desicions and so on and so on.

[doug]

God told man, obey me.

man said ok.

God told man, don't eat the apples or there will be hell to pay

man said, roger.

then woman came along and was like "hey, man, i'll dig you more if you eat this apple. a cool serpant said it would make me lose 10 pounds, but i don't want to diet alone."

man said "no way. God said to obey him and i said i would. God said not to eat the apple. I can't eat that apple"

woman says "c'mon man. it's okay. God can't see everything - the cool snake dude told me."

so man said "well i suppose once won't hurt"

and then God kicked man out of paradise and let all the bad things happen to him.

why is there pain, etc etc? because there is sin.

oh, and, God also gave man free will.

be accountable for what you do. don't blame your past or "circumstances"

[Narbus]

God was the one who made it that way. If he's God, he's all powerful. That means he could have made things very different. How about this?

either: God is omnipotent and has made a plan for all of us. Hence, before we were born, he knew whether or not we would go to hell. He made the choice to create us therefore he made the choice to send us to hell. That rules out us having free will.

or

God does not know which actions we will take next, therefore not making him omnipotent. Therefore he is a liar.

dicsuss

As he so often does, Terry Pratchett comes to the rescue.
"God does not play dice with the universe. He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time."

[Axtech]

Mmm, philosophy. I think I'll stay out of this one, though. Not having an answer myself, the only thing I could really do is spew different philosopher's theories. Then find flaws in them and wish I hadn't spewed them.

[Solidarity 9-6347]

i loved this book...homer was a genius

[One-Eye]

Well, if we're gonna throw quotes around, here's one for you, Doug:

God puts an apple tree in the middle of [the Garden of Eden] and says, do what you like, guys. Oh, but don’t eat the apple. Surprise, surprise, they eat it, and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting, ‘Gotcha!’ It wouldn’t have made any difference if they hadn’t eaten it... Because if you’re dealing with somebody who has that sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won’t give up. They’ll get you in the end.

[robcore]

God told man, obey me.

man said ok.

God told man, don't eat the apples or there will be hell to pay

man said, roger.

then woman came along and was like "hey, man, i'll dig you more if you eat this apple. a cool serpant said it would make me lose 10 pounds, but i don't want to diet alone."

man said "no way. God said to obey him and i said i would. God said not to eat the apple. I can't eat that apple"

woman says "c'mon man. it's okay. God can't see everything - the cool snake dude told me."

so man said "well i suppose once won't hurt"

and then God kicked man out of paradise and let all the bad things happen to him.

why is there pain, etc etc? because there is sin.

oh, and, God also gave man free will.

be accountable for what you do. don't blame your past or "circumstances"

That was beautiful, but going into the situation God knew what was going to happen (or he's not omnipotent). It was HIS PLAN. He knew that Adam and Eve would choose the apple, yet made them anyways. He knows millions will go to hell, yet creates them anyways. I can damn well blame God for everything. He chose to make life the way he did. He knew what would happen and let it happen.

Yannic: That choice, the ability to choose. THAT is considered free will. You are allowed to make choices of your own accord.

Alan: My situation relies a belief in God.

[Bandalero]

whoa Aerin, you got it in for god bad.

[The Post Modern]

What would you do if you found that, without a doubt, there is no to design to the happenings in this world -- not that there are events without a cause, but that there is no divine will guiding the course of events? It is a difficult idea to ascribe to, but not for any lack of reasoning. Chaos even makes more sense in some ways.

If you take the Bible as the source of all truth, then I suppose you would believe that the reason evil exists is that there was a rebellion in Heaven lead by the angel Lucifer and now we must all choose a side. However, how could there ever be a Heaven with no Hell to shadow it? What is good without evil? If everyone was constantly in sunlight, would the word "night" mean anything? According to the Bible, good will eventually vanquish evil, which suggests to me that we are on a road to oblivion. It's like giving someone a white sheet of paper and telling them to draw something with a white crayon. If you give them a black crayon, then they can 'define' something on the paper, so to speak.

[trentm32]

Okay, hee goes my big honkin' replies from a Christian perspective:

God is omnipotent, but he gave us the gift of freewill. He does have a predestined plan for everyones life; but it's up to us to walk that path.

As far as the "why do bad things happen to good people," it's because God doesn't (not can't, he chooses not to) control every aspect of every little thing, because, if he did, it would negate our free will. Because, most bad things that happen to you, are caused by a decision of another person (i.e. someone shoot's you; it sucks for you because you were shot, but it was their decision to shot you that caused it).

Another reason bad things happen is, as trite as it may sound, that it's a test of faith. If everything was cherry pie and happiness, we'd have no reason to not happily worship and believe in him.

If anyone has anything else, toss 'em my way, I'll try to answer 'em to the best of my biblical shcolarshiply ability will allow.

___________________

P.S. If anyone here is gonna be in Alabama Sunday, come to my church, cuz I'm teaching my first sunday school class (BOOYAH!) It's on "The Biblical Perspective Of Drugs & Alcohol" (things I know a bit too much about )