doug wrote:EDIT: This post sounds really harsh and pretenious but i'm too lazy to reword it. Please try to apply the lightest possible tone when reading this... i want this to be a "friendly" or at least polite discussion. Thanks.
that's ok doug, we haven't had one of these discussions in a while.
there are affordable schools. and contrary to the myth, education is not neccessary to succeed in life. the general manager of west edmonton mall, the largest mall in the world, has no formal education and started out at WEM as a janitor. Now he's the boss.
very true, you don't need a good education to not be poor. college is just my personal biased opinion. the success rate out of college is better then anything else though. the army's success rate in this department is bad, as is the oil rigs and farming. even the mall your talking about. how many janitors can move up to be the boss? the answer is only one. where as college allows anyone to improve their status if they work hard at it. (then again so does any company) just as long as you have a place to stand you can move the world, i guess is what i'm trying to say. some people just never get that place to stand on begin with.
Hell, there are quite a few cases of kids finishing Junior High and going into fields and forgoing high school. And yes, this is going on today, I've seen it first hand. That is a poor choice that the parents have made for that child, but it's the state's policy that allows for them to make that choice. and the cycle continues with those children.
Choices. All choices. there's no unavoidable circumstance that leads these people into poverty besides their own irrationality.
but it's the parents that have made that choice. not the kid. and it's their choice that's going to forever put a stigma on this kids life. and he'll do the same because that's all he knows.
Whenever death may surprise us,
let it be welcome
if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear
and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.
Nobody's gonna miss me, no tears will fall, no ones gonna weap, when i hit that road.
my boots are broken my brain is sore, fer keepin' up with thier little world, i got a heavy load.
gonna leave 'em all just like before, i'm big city bound, your always 17 in your hometown
That's the thing though. Without an education you're basing it on luck. Very few people with a high school degree or lower reach a point where they're the manager of the largest mall in the world. There are rare cases, but for the most part success is found with education.
I can't wait until the day schools are over-funded and the military is forced to hold bake sales to buy planes.
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
I'll get back to the other stuff mentioned in your post later on. I can see that we have differing views. I think my problem is associate with your first answer, saying she chose to get married, and she chose to have more kids etc. Obviously this is true, but no one chooses to become poor in her case as you said, which takes the laziness factor out of play. I agree that marrying young and having children isn't a smart play, but her financial situation afterwards and ability to rear children is now compromised. I found your answer to be quite shallow in that regard...............do you blame her?? Single moms are left in quite a predicament sometimes. I found you to be quite unsympathetic towards an unfortunate situation. Your "harsh" response was just that to me. Is it rational to blame single moms for the situations they find themselves in??
(your mentioning of choice seems to imply blame)
What I really want to talk about now is a situation encountered in season 2 of "24". In this situation the President has strong evidence that a nuclear bomb is in Los Angeles. A member of the press is able to find out about it. The reporter is questioned by the President, and eventually asks him not to report what he knows because it will surely cause a catastrophic panic. The reporter turns down the President's offer of an exclusive interview and tries to report the story. The President decides to hold him captive until the situation is resolved. Do you agree with his decision?
(Sorry if I hi-jacked the conversation. DOn't answer if this deserves another thread)
ya man take that to a new thread... there were other people still talking about the poverty issue
I can't wait until the day schools are over-funded and the military is forced to hold bake sales to buy planes.
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
J-Neli wrote:That's just the way the world is. If you're born into a poor family, odds are you will remain poor your entire life. It's possible to improve your life (meaning you won't necessarily be living in poverty) but you more than likely won't improve your social class.
yes i'm aware of that but that wasn't my point. my point is, if poverty is caused by poor choices/laziness and government then where does being born into a poor family fall. last time i checked you and the government don't choose who your parents are. So, wouldn't that be a circumstance beyond a person's control?
yes i'm aware of that but that wasn't my point. my point is, if poverty is caused by poor choices/laziness and government then where does being born into a poor family fall. last time i checked you and the government don't choose who your parents are. So, wouldn't that be a circumstance beyond a person's control?
No because I know plenty of people from my hometown that never went to college and are making plenty of money. Everyone has skills. You have to take advantage of those skills and work towards a goal. People who have their own construction/carpentry business can make a great deal of money and no college education is needed. I'm still baffled why some of you say tou can't goto college/university when your come from a poor family. I know dozens of people that are proving you wrong. These kids just have to want it and get good grades. If you have good grades, good SAT scores, etc the government will pay a lot of your way. It all goes back to effort or lack of. If someone wants to succeed they will and can period!
well there is certainly nothing you can about being born poor, there is no reason other then poor choices/lack of wage earning ability, laziness and government that you should die poor.
I'll get back to the other stuff mentioned in your post later on. I can see that we have differing views. I think my problem is associate with your first answer, saying she chose to get married, and she chose to have more kids etc. Obviously this is true, but no one chooses to become poor in her case as you said, which takes the laziness factor out of play. I agree that marrying young and having children isn't a smart play, but her financial situation afterwards and ability to rear children is now compromised. I found your answer to be quite shallow in that regard...............do you blame her?? Single moms are left in quite a predicament sometimes. I found you to be quite unsympathetic towards an unfortunate situation. Your "harsh" response was just that to me. Is it rational to blame single moms for the situations they find themselves in?? (your mentioning of choice seems to imply blame)
Do I blame her? Yes.
As you said yourself, having kids and getting married before you're twenty is not a smart play. Why isn't it a smart play? Because it can compromise your future. So if "blame" has to be laid somewhere, then it's on the mother. She made the poor choices and now must live with the ramifications.
What I really want to talk about now is a situation encountered in season 2 of "24". In this situation the President has strong evidence that a nuclear bomb is in Los Angeles. A member of the press is able to find out about it. The reporter is questioned by the President, and eventually asks him not to report what he knows because it will surely cause a catastrophic panic. The reporter turns down the President's offer of an exclusive interview and tries to report the story. The President decides to hold him captive until the situation is resolved. Do you agree with his decision?
(Sorry if I hi-jacked the conversation. DOn't answer if this deserves another thread)
Nope. He's an agent of the state, violating the rights of a free man.
<p align="center">[glow=black]Beggars stare at the brand new sneakers on the[/glow]
[glow=white]Anarchists[/glow] [glow=black]and_[/glow][glow=white]celebrity speakers[/glow]
[glow=black]These are improbable days my friends[/glow]</p>
Ya if you have kids when you're not prepared, you're at fault. That's your choice. So I'm siding with Doug on this one.
I can't wait until the day schools are over-funded and the military is forced to hold bake sales to buy planes.
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
I agree with him to a certain extent too.............regarding planning.
But, just because he is older and she is young doesn't mean that catastrophe was brewing. I am talking about couples that love each other, the woman quits school to look after the kid(s), and the husband works.
When you have a family Stay at home mom's have a job do to.......and sadly they don't get paid for it. If the husband leaves her when she cannot work due to raising children, is that really her fault???
I understand the planning arguement........like with teenagers, and yes I can see that they did put themselves in that position, but the parental duties required can handcuff her ability to find a job. Having kids means dependency....
We may not see eye to eye here, but I can see how a situation of similar circumstances can happen to any good-natured, hard working and thoughttful mother.
What are you trying to say? That a mother left with kids can just go out and get a great job, like its expected? Your mom is obviously talented in what she does......its possible for sure........but statistically a mom left with kids has less options because of the children and the costs and oppurtunities.....its common sense. Well, unless the women is clearly smarter than the man and only stays home to watch kids when really she could be working $200 000 jobs.........then she would be better off.............financially speaking. My bad.
that's ok doug, we haven't had one of these discussions in a while. 
the success rate out of college is better then anything else though. the army's success rate in this department is bad, as is the oil rigs and farming. even the mall your talking about. how many janitors can move up to be the boss? the answer is only one. where as college allows anyone to improve their status if they work hard at it. (then again so does any company) just as long as you have a place to stand you can move the world, i guess is what i'm trying to say. some people just never get that place to stand on begin with.
