american nazism at work

[doug]

venom, your hypocricy amazes me. let's take a look at this thread:

i start with this:

the worst part is, venom probably thinks this guy is a terrorist.

this is what your war on terrorism leads to and creates. we know that this is not an isolated incident, this is not the first innocent man your war on terrorism has persecuted.

wake the fuck up, please. you are not winning over the hearts and minds of anybody by doing this to anyone. this is not fucking acceptable if it helps you catch bin laden - which it hasn't. and who the fuck knows if bin laden had anything to do with 9/11 or any of the bullshit since.

i'd sure love to hear the rationalization for this one. i'm waiting. venom, you start.

do you bother to answer any of my points? nah, you just deflect and try to make this the canadian governments problem.

They told the US it was ok to deport him and assisted them!! What next Doug? LOL You think I wasn't gonna research?

Read my post again, venom. Then think of any of the ways your post rebutts anything i said.

did i ask whose fault it was? no. i said the war on terrorism leads to persecution of innocent men.

the WAR ON TERRORISM made this happen? do you disagree?

who knows? you'd prefer to deflect the issue and try to make this a thread about whose government fucked up.

i've got news for you guys: both governments did! that's what governments DO. they fuck up.

yet in the same thread, venom, you have the balls to accuse somebody of employing the exact same argumentative tactic that you yourself JUST used.

unbelievable.

[nelison]

I believe I even said that the Canadian govt screwed up

The Canadian govt didn't do the best job of getting him back to his home country, but why was he sent to Syria in the first place when he has lived in Canada for half his life?

The fact that you assume we don't read about this stuff is a pretty poor assumption. Considering you didn't even know about this before it was brought up, there's no way you can be a specialist about this topic. I don't know why, but you seem to think that your argument is the be all and end all, and that no one else's opinion has been educated.

Any idiot can go to a webpage, type in a keyword and provide sources and then say "HA". Hell I typed in Maher Arar at yahoo and found over 4,000 sites with his name in it. You can counter any argument in the world. If I say this is white, you can probably find a site saying that it isn't.

The fact is with this story, if an American were deported to the country he was born in, rather than where he lives permanently, this would be spread out throughout the news. You would not hear the end of it. But because it is a Canadian, it's merely shrugged off. The way your govt (and ours, don't worry, but your's infinitely worse) handled this situation is absurd and if I were Arar I would be bloody pissed off. It wasn't right. You know it wasn't right. Now I'll just wait for you to say I'm apparently still not educated enough on the topic...

[Venom]

The Canadian govt didn't do the best job of getting him back to his home country, but why was he sent to Syria in the first place when he has lived in Canada for half his life?

"didn't do the best job" and asking for him to be deported are two grossly different things. The WAr on Terrorism is right. Nothing you say will change that. Mistakes will happen, but in my opinion this is not one of them. He was wanted by the Syrian government. He ran away from his military service and is accused of being a member of a known terrorist organization. Why is his word being taken as "the truth" by all of you. Do you know this man? How do you know he wasn't a member of this group? I would rather send him back then allow him to possibly cause mayhem here.

Everyone was attacking ONLY the US government on this. I showed everyone that it was actually the Canadian government that asked for him to be deported. I'm sick of people blaming the US for everything. What is wrong with showing the REAL story? Why didn't you mention the Canadian aspect of the story Doug??? Sounds like you were being just a bit biased.

i've got news for you guys: both governments did! that's what governments DO. they fuck up.

As opposed to anarchy. Anarchy is a joke. Anarchy is chaos. Humans need laws. Without laws we would be living in fear of Napoleon, Hitler, Saddam, or another similar person. Actually we probably wouldn't be living. Someone who didn't like us would have killed us because there would be no consequence of doing so.

Of course they have, but its funny that you have to change the subject and attack something else when you get this story (the REAL story now) shoved in your faces. This is a classic example of how people blow things way out of proportion. Do some reasearch before you decide you know what happened or else you look really foolish!

I see nothing wrong with what I said. NO ONE mentioned the Canadian involvement except me. Was I just supposed to let people keep thinking it was only the Americans fault this man was deported?? Yeah right!

did i ask whose fault it was? no.

No but you didn't mention the involvement of Canadian authorities. You posted an article that made no mention of their involvement. You blamed it on the US. Unless Canada is a puppet of the US I don't think naming only the US is right or accurate. Your point is that you BELIEVE the war on Terrorism affects innocents. I think the bad FAR outweighs the progress that is being made. Thousands of REAL terrorists are no longer around and
THAT is a good thing no matter how you spin it.

[I AM ME]

how can you win a war on an action? Not through physical means. You can kill as many people as you want, but if you never address the problem there will just be more and more people waiting to take up teh cause. There a reason why people do these things. War and Violnce breed hate. Hate leads to terrorism. Maybe we should be letting these people know that we care about them, give them a reason to love us or at least like us. Because THAT'S how you fight an idea, you put another idea in their heads. Why arn't Canadian's internationally hostile to American's? Because we haven't been given very many reason to be hostile. If ou give someone a reason to hate you then chances are they're going to want revenge

[nelison]

Ok. Here's an example for ya. My french teacher for the past 4 years left France when he was 18, partially for school, partiallt so he could avoid mandatory military service. He's now 32. If he goes over the border should they then be able to simply send him back to France because he didn't do his military service?

[happening fish]

Yeah my dad avoided military service in Greece by being a full-time student until he moved to Canada at 21. So what, the fucking US should be able to arrest him at an airport and ship him off? Fuck you.

[Corey]

Ok. Here's an example for ya. My french teacher for the past 4 years left France when he was 18, partially for school, partiallt so he could avoid mandatory military service. He's now 32. If he goes over the border should they then be able to simply send him back to France because he didn't do his military service?

If he was born in France and that is part of their law then yes. You can't avoid your home countries laws by leaving. If I murder someone in the US and move to Canada, does the crime go unpunished?

Honestly, some of you are just reaching to find ways to crucify the US. Fine, you hate the US. We get the idea, there's no reason to keep pissing about it. You act as if this is some sort of US only law. This is the way it is NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO.

[Venom]

If he was born in France and that is part of their law then yes. You can't avoid your home countries laws by leaving. If I murder someone in the US and move to Canada, does the crime go unpunished?

Honestly, some of you are just reaching to find ways to crucify the US. Fine, you hate the US. We get the idea, there's no reason to keep pissing about it. You act as if this is some sort of US only law. This is the way it is NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO.

They don't get it Corey. The only people they see as criminals are Americans or to be more specific the US government. No one else in the world is guilty of anything.

[Sufjan Stevens]

Although I think it's stupid what they did in this situation, it's a law, and laws are to be followed. Seriously, if I killed someone in Michigan, then moved to Switzerland and lived there for a few years until the whole mystery died down, that wouldn't make the murder go away. If I were to be caught at an airport or whatever, then by all means, they have to take me away and send me back to my country to face my crime. There's no other option here. That's just how it goes.

Why am I agreeing with Venom so damn much?

[Eelco]

You act as if this is some sort of US only law. This is the way it is NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO.

This is certainly not true. It does not happen whereever you go. The UN has made a treaty against deporting people to a country where people will be tortured. Dutch citizens won't be send to a country for trial if there's suspicion that the country does not respect the international Human Rights (well, maybe that's not completely true, because some alleged drug dealers have been sent to the US )

I agree that if someone is a suspect of a crime he should face trial for that, no matter in which country he lives or where he's from, but he also deserves a fair trial, without torture.

The international court house is a step in the good direction for cases like this, but unfortunately the US decided not to take part in that.

(Btw, I do not hate the US)

[I AM ME]

He makes a point, it's true that you can't send a citizen back to a country where they will be treated in violation of international human rights. They gain refugee status.

What was the crime Maher commited? I keep seeing murder thrown around, but in syria it could be just about anything, for all you know he ditched out on a mandate that forced him to join Syrian forces that someday will be fighting american forces as the american invade

[Sufjan Stevens]

I used the word murder for my example. I am not saying that is what he did. I am just saying that if you broke a law, and left your country behind because of it, if you get caught, you should be sent back to face the punishment. That's common knowledge.

[Venom]

He is accused of being a member of The Muslim Brotherhood (an outlawed terrorist group in Syria) and for evading military service.

[Sufjan Stevens]

OK, so he's an accused murderer and potentially a terrorist. Now can we all just stop and realize it's best that he isn't in our countries? If he is a murderer and a terrorist, does America have the right to send him back to Syria?

[nelison]

The main part of that is "if". In reality, every human is a suspect in the war on terrorism, therefore if everyone's a suspect, everyone should be deported back to where they were born.

What's this? You're from Canada? why the Austrailian accent? Oh you were born there. well then the next plane to Sydney will take off in a couple hours. For your convenience a worker for the CIA will accompany you back to your home.

You cannot deport someone because they are suspected. If you're going to do that then you might as well just not allow any outsider into your country. Then all you need to worry about is the guys who want to blow things up within their own country (a la Tim Mcveigh) rather than innocent people trying to enter it.

[Sufjan Stevens]

Alright, this man has been wanted by the Syrian government for years, and he so happens to stroll into America, and we find out about his past. He is in America and his government wants him back because there's a good chance he's a terrorist. So how the hell are you trying to rationalize that we're going to let a man that is a suspected terrorist in his home country wander around America, land of the overcautious patriot since 9-11, as something completely sane? Come on, if you had the same event we did, and you had a terrorist waltzing into your country, you would be worried too bud.

[Venom]

Alan did you hit your head this week?

[Venom]

The main part of that is "if". In reality, every human is a suspect in the war on terrorism, therefore if everyone's a suspect, everyone should be deported back to where they were born.

Not everyone is suspect, stop exaggerating! If another country informs us of potentially suspect people then its justified. Just because someone is from another country does not make them suspect. If you haven't done anything to bring about suspicion you aren't gonna be deported. You make it sound like everyone is being deported. Thats far from the reality of it!

[nelison]

Everyone is a suspect though. A Tim Mcveigh could be sitting beside you on a plane and because he was your typical WASP he would go unnoticed. The guy didn't make a scene at the airport either. They simply pulled him aside and had him come with them. If anything you're exaggerating.

[Sufjan Stevens]

Jim, let's realize something here. Venom isn't saying that he was in the airport running around naked with I hate America painted on his back saying he is going to throw bombs all across the airport. He did, however, do something suspicious in his homeland. That is why they have computers at airports here and check who you are multiple times, so they don't have another situation like 9-11. This man has suspected terrorist roots in his past, and even if it seems wrong to send him to Syria, we can't take the risk of letting him get on the plane. He is a suspected terrorist and a murderer, two things that we don't take too lightly here in America (outside of Detroit). Granted we could have just detained him in the airport, but the people were just following protocal and history, which says to send the man back to Syria.

Alan did you hit your head this week?

Surprisingly enough, no. This is just one of those common sense stories I had to comment on. If you're a suspected terrorist in America, and our computers say something about it when you walk in an airport, I think the people have every right to be concerned about the man. With that said, however, I still think we overreact too much about 9-11.