Example about the private property issue. Assult is illegal. I own my house. I cannot assult you on my property just because it's my property (unless, of course, you come on uninvited, etc). This is illegal because, whether it's my property or not, it is causing harm to others.
Your vote counting more is a side affect of the law. The only direct affect is that which the law states.
Worst. Idea. Ever.
Axtech wrote:Example about the private property issue. Assult is illegal. I own my house. I cannot assult you on my property just because it's my property (unless, of course, you come on uninvited, etc). This is illegal because, whether it's my property or not, it is causing harm to others.
If you put up a sign saying "I will punch you if you come into my house," and people still insisted upon coming into your house, they are asking for the punch.
If I put up a sign that says "People will be smoking in here," and people still insist upon coming into your house, they are accepting that they will be sitting in a cloud of second-hand smoke.
This is an issue of choice, again, and it's even in the wrong thread.
Your vote counting more is a side affect of the law. The only direct affect is that which the law states.
And in the exact same way the "no second-hand smoke" bit is more a side effect of the no smoking law. The only direct effect is that which the law states. Therefore, by your own reasoning, the law does not effect everyone equally.
Also, simply because a law does affect everyone equally does not mean it's a just or fair law.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
I'm not saying all laws are just. But the smoking law is equal. It is saying that NO ONE can smoke. Even "non-smokers". Therefore, it directly applies to everyone.
- -
Every now and then I fall out into open air just to feel the wind, rain and everything.
And though the hum and sway gets me down, I'll find the way to peace and openness.
"Robbo" - © Alex (happeningfish)...^5 ^5 v v
Every now and then I fall out into open air just to feel the wind, rain and everything.
And though the hum and sway gets me down, I'll find the way to peace and openness.
"Robbo" - © Alex (happeningfish)...^5 ^5 v v
Narbus wrote:If you put up a sign saying "I will punch you if you come into my house," and people still insisted upon coming into your house, they are asking for the punch.
If I put up a sign that says "People will be smoking in here," and people still insist upon coming into your house, they are accepting that they will be sitting in a cloud of second-hand smoke.
This is an issue of choice, again, and it's even in the wrong thread.
Yeah, we got a little sidetracked here. Oh well.
The sign is a good point. However, all people would put up a smoking sign to be open to more business. That's like every bar/restaurant (etc) putting up the punching sign. Only those who want to "get punched" are welcome. There would be nowhere to go without being punched.
The whole thing is a choice whether to make everything smoking optional or everything non-smoking. The government is making the healthier choice of the two.
- -
Every now and then I fall out into open air just to feel the wind, rain and everything.
And though the hum and sway gets me down, I'll find the way to peace and openness.
"Robbo" - © Alex (happeningfish)...^5 ^5 v v
Every now and then I fall out into open air just to feel the wind, rain and everything.
And though the hum and sway gets me down, I'll find the way to peace and openness.
"Robbo" - © Alex (happeningfish)...^5 ^5 v v
Axtech wrote:The sign is a good point. However, all people would put up a smoking sign to be open to more business. That's like every bar/restaurant (etc) putting up the punching sign. Only those who want to "get punched" are welcome. There would be nowhere to go without being punched.
Not true. There are a lot of resturants out there that don't allow smoking. I've worked in a few, and some of them are really rather nice, not just Village Inn/Pizza Hut types. There are people who will frequent resurants that are non-smoking just because they're non-smoking.
The whole thing is a choice whether to make everything smoking optional or everything non-smoking. The government is making the healthier choice of the two.
There are several issues here.
First, there's me delicately stepping around a slippery slope argument by suggesting that the amount of fat in food be regulated next. Not as far fetched as it sounds, as there's already been lawsuits filed claiming that fast food is responsible for people's obesity.
Next, the government is making the physically healthier choice. Intellectually, it is stagnating the people by holding their hands and brushing any problems that may arise out of the way for them.
Also, this isn't as clear cut a choice as you claim it to be. As i see it, it's a choice whether to allow people to do with their property as they will or be forced to bow to someone else's decisions.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
What you say is true. But you have to take into consideration that people who are eating too much fat aren't affecting others by their intake. Smokers are. I personally love dining without having to worry about inhaling second hand smoke. Property owners do have the right to make their own rules, providing they don't infringe on personal rights. I have the right to eat a hot dog without my lungs suffering all the while. But you make some excellent points.
Don't ask questions, just accept it.
Taking a small bit of a stretch, eating a lot of fatty food does affect others.
It affects your job, where your lack of good health will cost in productivity as you're out sick a lot, forcing others to pick up your slack, and costing the company money to reimburse those people.
It affects the people of the nation if you (as many people of ANY weight do) rely on the government for medical care, since your completely preventable health problems are now costing the taxpayer money.
It costs me, personally, because I don't want to see Carly Wilson's god-damn stomach stapling but there it is and God that's nasty. Why, ET, why did you have to flash the pictures? *sob*
Keep in mind that I think the idea of regulating fat in food like this is stupid. Make sure that people are provided with accurate descriptions of what's in food, and let them decide themselves. But these are all arguments that I can see being used to try and convince congress to pass laws regulating fat anyway.
It affects your job, where your lack of good health will cost in productivity as you're out sick a lot, forcing others to pick up your slack, and costing the company money to reimburse those people.
It affects the people of the nation if you (as many people of ANY weight do) rely on the government for medical care, since your completely preventable health problems are now costing the taxpayer money.
It costs me, personally, because I don't want to see Carly Wilson's god-damn stomach stapling but there it is and God that's nasty. Why, ET, why did you have to flash the pictures? *sob*
Keep in mind that I think the idea of regulating fat in food like this is stupid. Make sure that people are provided with accurate descriptions of what's in food, and let them decide themselves. But these are all arguments that I can see being used to try and convince congress to pass laws regulating fat anyway.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
That's one hell of a stretch. You have to put limits on this. Fat directly affects only the one consuming it. Smoking directly affects you and those around you. It's not like while I'm eating fatty foods I'm spraying gaseous fat into the air for you to inadvertently digest. However, when one smokes, they're blowing smoke out into the air for everyone around to inadvertently inhale.
- -
Every now and then I fall out into open air just to feel the wind, rain and everything.
And though the hum and sway gets me down, I'll find the way to peace and openness.
"Robbo" - © Alex (happeningfish)...^5 ^5 v v
Every now and then I fall out into open air just to feel the wind, rain and everything.
And though the hum and sway gets me down, I'll find the way to peace and openness.
"Robbo" - © Alex (happeningfish)...^5 ^5 v v
Okay. You said, "The whole thing is a choice whether to make everything smoking optional or everything non-smoking. The government is making the healthier choice of the two." as your justification as to why private business owners couldn't decide what to do with that property. As it's a fact that there are already many resturants out there that are "clean-air" (where I live actually have stickers to put on the door announcing the fact, and you can pick up a guide to such resturants from city hall), and many resturants are being designed to separate smokers from non as much as possibly (putting the foyer inbetween the smoking and non sections, installing more powerful air filtration devices, etc) it follows that the health of the smoker should be the driving concern here.
Since health is what's important, then it follows that other unhealthy practices would be regulated next, irregardless of how direct or indirect the consequences of such unhealthy living are to others.
Since health is what's important, then it follows that other unhealthy practices would be regulated next, irregardless of how direct or indirect the consequences of such unhealthy living are to others.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
what's all this aboot? 
Whenever death may surprise us,
let it be welcome
if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear
and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.
Nobody's gonna miss me, no tears will fall, no ones gonna weap, when i hit that road.
my boots are broken my brain is sore, fer keepin' up with thier little world, i got a heavy load.
gonna leave 'em all just like before, i'm big city bound, your always 17 in your hometown
let it be welcome
if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear
and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.
Nobody's gonna miss me, no tears will fall, no ones gonna weap, when i hit that road.
my boots are broken my brain is sore, fer keepin' up with thier little world, i got a heavy load.
gonna leave 'em all just like before, i'm big city bound, your always 17 in your hometown
robcore wrote:Property owners do have the right to make their own rules, providing they don't infringe on personal rights. I have the right to eat a hot dog without my lungs suffering all the while.
I wanted to reply to this just a little more.
When you enter a resturant where you know that smoking is allowed, you are accepting that your may be breathing in smoke. You effectively give up the right to not breathe in smoke by walking in the door. Just the same as when ordering food, you are giving up the right to your money. In either situation, you are entering into an agreement with the business owner that benefits you both. You get food, the owner gets money. It's your choice.
It may be nice if you didn't have to give up the right to clean air, but it's a choice you make. If you want to take your business to a clean air resturant, that's your choice. It's not an area that government needs to get involved in, is the point. You have a decision about what goes into your lungs, the owner has a decision as to whether or not it is good for that particular business.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
just so that i can follow a little bit clearer, Narbus, you believe in the owners right to choose if his place is to be a smoke-free place or not, but you don't approve of government making the descision for him, right?
Whenever death may surprise us,
let it be welcome
if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear
and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.
Nobody's gonna miss me, no tears will fall, no ones gonna weap, when i hit that road.
my boots are broken my brain is sore, fer keepin' up with thier little world, i got a heavy load.
gonna leave 'em all just like before, i'm big city bound, your always 17 in your hometown
let it be welcome
if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear
and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.
Nobody's gonna miss me, no tears will fall, no ones gonna weap, when i hit that road.
my boots are broken my brain is sore, fer keepin' up with thier little world, i got a heavy load.
gonna leave 'em all just like before, i'm big city bound, your always 17 in your hometown
ok. *fades back into background*
Whenever death may surprise us,
let it be welcome
if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear
and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.
Nobody's gonna miss me, no tears will fall, no ones gonna weap, when i hit that road.
my boots are broken my brain is sore, fer keepin' up with thier little world, i got a heavy load.
gonna leave 'em all just like before, i'm big city bound, your always 17 in your hometown
let it be welcome
if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear
and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.
Nobody's gonna miss me, no tears will fall, no ones gonna weap, when i hit that road.
my boots are broken my brain is sore, fer keepin' up with thier little world, i got a heavy load.
gonna leave 'em all just like before, i'm big city bound, your always 17 in your hometown