Philosophy of Self Ownership

[Narbus]

cause you are an idiot. then again so am i and everyone else. it's unhealthy to put that shit in your system, but you do it anyway. same goes for me and alcohol, that's why government wants to curve the amount of booze i can drink before i get in trouble.
of course your shit is worse only because your habbit is creating this demand that not only is illegal, but is killing women/children in mexico. you could blame the government for it's restrictions, but it all comes down to your habbit to something that isn't good for you.

1. The Habbit. I used to love that book.
2. AGAIN, what gives you the right to tell me I can't do unhealthy things to my body? If I want to smoke, drink, or whatever else, why do you get a say in it? It's my body.
3. The killing women thing is an appeal to emotion. Logical fallacy. Try again.

you are rewarded, as am i. cause were idiots.

Yes, by all means, make some great blanket statement and not provide a single, solitary bit of reasoning as to why it's true.

everyone answers to someone/something. employees to bosses, kids to parents, humans to some sort of belief that they want to hold themselves too. you think that just because your you that you can run around and do whatever the hell you want thinking it's not affecting anyone but yourself, your wrong. remember your habbit is killing women in Mexico, and no matter how you cut it, it all comes down to your habbit.

I choose to answer to my boss. I am in a mutually agreeable arrangment where I am provided with money, and my employer is provided with my time. I choose this deal, and my boss agreed. I made no such decision with the government. It was forced upon me.
Also, if pot were legal, then I wouldn't have to import from those damn, dirty, mysoginistic mexicans, now would I?
PS: Still an appeal to emotion.

heh...money talks bullshit walks. if they can save money while investing in an education for a student then they'll try and cut costs. has the student lost anything signifigant if these products are gone? no, because most of these corporate contracts with these schools don't pay for the books or the light bills, just other equipment not essential for academics.

Great. So the heads of the schools are morons. Yay. But even if I do pull my child, for home school, or a private school, or whatever, I am still forced to pay for public schools. Why?

actually it is working, because you, along with everyone else that pays taxes, are FREE to reap the benifits of these programs that everyone funds with their tax money.

BUT I DON'T WANT THE BENEFITS. I WANT MY MONEY BACK.

you don't have kids, hey you don't need as much, you have a higher salary, then you can afford to put into these programs a little more.

Why do I have to? I work for my own damn money. And just because someone out there has a bigger gun than me I have to turn over a very noticable chunk of my money for no reason. Why is that fair to me? You are refusing to answer this question, and it's becoming annoying.

that's the way it works here, find me something else that will work alot better, and work with your political cronnies to chage things. there are other ways, one in particular that i know of where everyone works for the government, get paid atleast $80,000, and you have health insurance. the only thing you can't do there is complain about the government, because you'll be killed. Quatar would be a kick ass place to live, but you, me and everyone else here in the states woundn't hack it. (or so i'm told by students from Quatar) because that seems to be our wonderful pastime.....bitch about the government. true france and spain aren't filled with starvation, but they're not lush asses like people from the US. that's why people hate us, were arrogant, were wasteful, we have fat spoiled kids we don't take care of, were lazy?, were assholes that have interests in the rest of the world. in other words, we work hard, we play hard. we earned it all, the haters, the friends, and most of all the right to bitch about minor things in life.

What the hell.
1. "political croonies" Logical fallacy: Personal attack.
2. the bit about Quatar: Part Appeal to Force, but mostly consequences.
Also, anonymous authority, what with not actually providing any information about Quatar.
3. The bit about americans, which I honestly couldn't follow (sentence structure, look into it) is hasty generalization.
4. The bit about "bitching about the minor things in life," is prejudicial language.

Basically, form an argument, think about it, and then post. As it stands, you've done nothing to disprove anything I've said.

Where, exactly, do you get the right to tell me how to live my life, so long as I am not depriving you of your life, your property, or your liberty?

[Corey]

Education boards meet all the time. Every time they meet they talk about budget and surprisingly, even the people without kids choose to INCREASE taxes for education. Why? Because they value education and wish for the children in their area to have a high standard of schooling. Much like the one we've all had growing up.

[Narbus]

1. Again, with the anonymous authority.
2. So? It isn't any more right for people on an education board to force me to pay taxes than it is for someone in the Senate to.

[Corey]

You help elect them. You give them that responsibility.

[Solidarity 9-6347]

most libertarians/anarchists do not vote, simply because that would be against their beliefs....i turned 18 in april and have had opportunities to vote, including for said schoolboard but didn't because that would make me a hypocrite

[Sufjan Stevens]

You're a libertarian, right?

[Narbus]

You help elect them. You give them that responsibility.

Nope. As I don't believe these people should have this kind of legal power over me, I don't vote. Plus, the "being a libertarian" thing.

[Sufjan Stevens]

I have a question. Why should everyone be made to pay for public schooling? Since I started attending school, I've been in a private school where the money my parents paid in their taxes could have been used to improve the school that I went to. My school had problems that needed to be fixed, it could have used new text books, it could have used the money to fund a lot of programs. But all the money did was go away to a school that I had no connections with to pay for a new classroom with computers for every kid. Everything at my school had to be either donated or covered in the tuition, which explains why the tuition at my high school went up $2000 in the four years I was there, and went up another $1000 since I left. If you don't have kids in public schools, then why should one be forced to pay for it? If you send your kids to a private school, you should be paying for your kid's education and improving his or her surroundings, not the surroundings of some punk bitch stranger that couldn't care less about going to school, let alone how it gets fixed up or where the money comes from.

[Bandalero]

cause you are an idiot. then again so am i and everyone else. it's unhealthy to put that shit in your system, but you do it anyway. same goes for me and alcohol, that's why government wants to curve the amount of booze i can drink before i get in trouble.
of course your shit is worse only because your habbit is creating this demand that not only is illegal, but is killing women/children in mexico. you could blame the government for it's restrictions, but it all comes down to your habbit to something that isn't good for you.

1. The Habbit. I used to love that book.
2. AGAIN, what gives you the right to tell me I can't do unhealthy things to my body? If I want to smoke, drink, or whatever else, why do you get a say in it? It's my body.
3. The killing women thing is an appeal to emotion. Logical fallacy. Try again.

I already told you why, because 50 years from now, your gonna be old and retired, and your going to want government medical benefits because you can't afford your own bills. Might as well keep you from doing something harmful to you since they’re gonna have to invest money into your medical expenses.

you are rewarded, as am i. cause were idiots.

Yes, by all means, make some great blanket statement and not provide a single, solitary bit of reasoning as to why it's true.

it's in reference to a statement before it.

:roll: everyone answers to someone/something. employees to bosses, kids to parents, humans to some sort of belief that they want to hold themselves too. you think that just because your you that you can run around and do whatever the hell you want thinking it's not affecting anyone but yourself, your wrong. remember your habbit is killing women in Mexico, and no matter how you cut it, it all comes down to your habbit.

I choose to answer to my boss. I am in a mutually agreeable arrangment where I am provided with money, and my employer is provided with my time. I choose this deal, and my boss agreed. I made no such decision with the government. It was forced upon me.
Also, if pot were legal, then I wouldn't have to import from those damn, dirty, mysoginistic mexicans, now would I?
PS: Still an appeal to emotion.

and your parents? that's not an agreement. you reap the benefits of having parents, they could have killed you off or put you up for adoption. One of them could have just left and not worry about taking care of a child. There’s no law that says they have to stay together to take care of you.

now if pot were legal, you'd have calvin klein designer pot that would eventually put a dent into the FORIEGN importer's business. pot will still be cheaper illegally. what's the mexican importer going to have to do to make up the lost revenue.....harvest more organs. is this business enough for you? i'm not appealing to emotion here, it's just buisness, that's what going to happen.

heh...money talks bullshit walks. if they can save money while investing in an education for a student then they'll try and cut costs. has the student lost anything signifigant if these products are gone? no, because most of these corporate contracts with these schools don't pay for the books or the light bills, just other equipment not essential for academics.

Great. So the heads of the schools are morons. Yay. But even if I do pull my child, for home school, or a private school, or whatever, I am still forced to pay for public schools. Why?

BUT I DON'T WANT THE BENEFITS. I WANT MY MONEY BACK.

you don't have kids, hey you don't need as much, you have a higher salary, then you can afford to put into these programs a little more.

Why do I have to? I work for my own damn money. And just because someone out there has a bigger gun than me I have to turn over a very noticeable chunk of my money for no reason. Why is that fair to me? You are refusing to answer this question, and it's becoming annoying.

because it's still available to you. there are thousands of grants, federal aid programs that everyone is paying for and they don't receive the benefits of these programs. they don't pursuit these advantages, so they don't benefit from them. when a service is provided, the revenue from such a service is realized or realizable. (and in government form that's tax) it's not my fault YOU choose not to take advantage of services provided to you that you pay for. In other words your cheating yourself.

that's the way it works here, find me something else that will work alot better, and work with your political cronnies to chage things. there are other ways, one in particular that i know of where everyone works for the government, get paid atleast $80,000, and you have health insurance. the only thing you can't do there is complain about the government, because you'll be killed. Quatar would be a kick ass place to live, but you, me and everyone else here in the states woundn't hack it. (or so i'm told by students from Quatar) because that seems to be our wonderful pastime.....bitch about the government. true france and spain aren't filled with starvation, but they're not lush asses like people from the US. that's why people hate us, were arrogant, were wasteful, we have fat spoiled kids we don't take care of, were lazy?, were assholes that have interests in the rest of the world. in other words, we work hard, we play hard. we earned it all, the haters, the friends, and most of all the right to bitch about minor things in life.

What the hell.
1. "political croonies" Logical fallacy: Personal attack.
2. the bit about Quatar: Part Appeal to Force, but mostly consequences.
Also, anonymous authority, what with not actually providing any information about Quatar.
3. The bit about americans, which I honestly couldn't follow (sentence structure, look into it) is hasty generalization.
4. The bit about "bitching about the minor things in life," is prejudicial language.

Basically, form an argument, think about it, and then post. As it stands, you've done nothing to disprove anything I've said.

Where, exactly, do you get the right to tell me how to live my life, so long as I am not depriving you of your life, your property, or your liberty?

1. political cronies, all i meant by that is talk to someone about it, or do something about it, all you anarchist do is hand out stickers on college campuses. what else have you SHOWN ME and the rest of the world that your capable of, other then asking questions. it is a personal attack, an outright one at that too. what have anarchist done in recent history to change the world?

2. that was not an appeal to force, or consequence. i was informing you that there are other solutions to YOUR problem. As in round up your 'cronies' and change your situation. revolt, i'm encouraging you, not trying to tell you your wrong. we need a revolutionary. I was told about this situation in Quatar by students from that country. I thought it was cool except about the killing part. but seriously, 80K, health care....what's to BITCH about? it's just an example, there are other options out there, go look for them.

3. what part didn't you understand? i'll be happy to clarify myself.

4. your right that's what it is. i'm proud of my right to bitch about minor things. in case you haven't noticed i bitch alot about stuff that pertains to government officials. i plan on doing something about it by voting against them, what are you gonna do about your problems?

[Narbus]

I already told you why, because 50 years from now, your gonna be old and retired, and your going to want government medical benefits because you can't afford your own bills. Might as well keep you from doing something harmful to you since they’re gonna have to invest money into your medical expenses.

No, 50 years from now if I wasn't intelligent enough to actually save up some money for my retirement, then I deserve what I get.

it's in reference to a statement before it.

What statement? Where am I stupid and asking for a reward for my stupidity?

and your parents? that's not an agreement. you reap the benefits of having parents, they could have killed you off or put you up for adoption. One of them could have just left and not worry about taking care of a child. There’s no law that says they have to stay together to take care of you.

No, there isn't, and in a lot of cases they don't. Divorce rate hovering around 50%, and all that.
Also, becomming a parent is a personal choice. If someone wants the responsiblity of raising a child and helping them reach a level of maturity to where they are capable of acting in a rational manner, then that's their choice. Until that child is capable of acting in a rational manner, they are their parent's responsibility. Simple.

now if pot were legal, you'd have calvin klein designer pot that would eventually put a dent into the FORIEGN importer's business. pot will still be cheaper illegally. what's the mexican importer going to have to do to make up the lost revenue.....harvest more organs. is this business enough for you? i'm not appealing to emotion here, it's just buisness, that's what going to happen.

Yes, it's still appeal to emotion, and now you're hovering somewhere near "anonymous authority," too. "Harvesting organs?" Back this up with some facts, including reputable sources.

because it's still available to you. there are thousands of grants, federal aid programs that everyone is paying for and they don't receive the benefits of these programs. they don't pursuit these advantages, so they don't benefit from them. when a service is provided, the revenue from such a service is realized or realizable. (and in government form that's tax) it's not my fault YOU choose not to take advantage of services provided to you that you pay for. In other words your cheating yourself.

You're missing the point. I'm not cheating myself, I am being cheated. Let's say I rob you at gunpoint, and them put your stuff up for public auction. It is "cheating yourself" if you don't go and pay for your own stuff again? No, it's being cheated.

1. political cronies, all i meant by that is talk to someone about it, or do something about it, all you anarchist do is hand out stickers on college campuses. what else have you SHOWN ME and the rest of the world that your capable of, other then asking questions. it is a personal attack, an outright one at that too. what have anarchist done in recent history to change the world?

Not an anarchist. Libertarian. Doug is the anarchist.

2. that was not an appeal to force, or consequence. i was informing you that there are other solutions to YOUR problem. As in round up your 'cronies' and change your situation. revolt, i'm encouraging you, not trying to tell you your wrong. we need a revolutionary. I was told about this situation in Quatar by students from that country. I thought it was cool except about the killing part. but seriously, 80K, health care....what's to BITCH about? it's just an example, there are other options out there, go look for them.

I don't want a revolt. Those generally involve the initation of force, and I'm against that. Also, it's not my job to look for information to prove your point for you. If you want to make a point, then provide your own sources and information.

3. what part didn't you understand? i'll be happy to clarify myself.

Pretty much all of it. I read it to say "American are fat, arrogant, jackasses, but that's just fine." Which makes no sense to me at all.

4. your right that's what it is. i'm proud of my right to bitch about minor things. in case you haven't noticed i bitch alot about stuff that pertains to government officials. i plan on doing something about it by voting against them, what are you gonna do about your problems?

Between work and classes, there's not a lot I can do about it right now. I haven't seen any local politicians that believe in what I do, since I'm in Nebraska and all, so voting is really a waste of my time. For now, I'm happy with pointing out the flaws in the system of government you so righteously preach. However, your complete and total inability to answer the most critical of my questions is beginning to grate, and I'm guessing that if you deal with all your problems by ignoring them in a similar fashion, then not doing anything is putting me right up on par with you.

So, again, where, exactly, do you get the right to tell me how to live my life, so long as I am not depriving you of your life, your property, or your liberty?

[Bandalero]

I already told you why, because 50 years from now, your gonna be old and retired, and your going to want government medical benefits because you can't afford your own bills. Might as well keep you from doing something harmful to you since they’re gonna have to invest money into your medical expenses.

No, 50 years from now if I wasn't intelligent enough to actually save up some money for my retirement, then I deserve what I get.

and god willing you'll have enough to pay for every health emergency that comes along. you need any help, the feds will help you out.

and your parents? that's not an agreement. you reap the benefits of having parents, they could have killed you off or put you up for adoption. One of them could have just left and not worry about taking care of a child. There’s no law that says they have to stay together to take care of you.

No, there isn't, and in a lot of cases they don't. Divorce rate hovering around 50%, and all that.
Also, becoming a parent is a personal choice. If someone wants the responsiblity of raising a child and helping them reach a level of maturity to where they are capable of acting in a rational manner, then that's their choice. Until that child is capable of acting in a rational manner, they are their parent's responsibility. Simple.

that's right, it's still not an agreement, it's something they do for a child's benefit. same goes for government and the people who are being governed.

now if pot were legal, you'd have calvin klein designer pot that would eventually put a dent into the FORIEGN importer's business. pot will still be cheaper illegally. what's the mexican importer going to have to do to make up the lost revenue.....harvest more organs. is this business enough for you? i'm not appealing to emotion here, it's just buisness, that's what going to happen.

Yes, it's still appeal to emotion, and now you're hovering somewhere near "anonymous authority," too. "Harvesting organs?" Back this up with some facts, including reputable sources.

go to the texas monthly website, or check out a Laredo news paper from about a month back. members of organized crime in Nuevo Laredo shot the Mexican equivalent of the head of the swat team a bunch of times because he cut into their drug trade. i'm close to the border, i hear/see these types of things, i don't have to prove my sources to you. all i got to do is open my ears and listen to the stupid shit around me. you don't hear about it because you don't want to hear about it. open up man, what's new in Nebraska? I think something’s up out there, something that’s fueling this discussion. I don’t think federal law against pot is annoying you, I think it’s state anti-pot laws that’s getting to you.

because it's still available to you. there are thousands of grants, federal aid programs that everyone is paying for and they don't receive the benefits of these programs. they don't pursuit these advantages, so they don't benefit from them. when a service is provided, the revenue from such a service is realized or realizable. (and in government form that's tax) it's not my fault YOU choose not to take advantage of services provided to you that you pay for. In other words your cheating yourself.

You're missing the point. I'm not cheating myself, I am being cheated. Let's say I rob you at gunpoint, and them put your stuff up for public auction. It is "cheating yourself" if you don't go and pay for your own stuff again? No, it's being cheated.

this is a better non-realistic scenario. someone robs you at gun point, takes your money, the next day you wake up and there are keys to a new car in your possession. you go out to the garage and there's a new car, bought by your $22.75 that you got jacked from you the other night. you gonna take the car, or are you gonna feel cheated and deny yourself of this new toy that you only paid $22.75 into?

but that is just that in real life government doesn't hold a gun to your head. if you lie on your taxes, the IRS does a random audit, finds out your off a little, just open your check book. tell them honest mistake, how much do i owe you? they are NOT going to throw you in jail, in fact despite your beliefs to them, it's an honest mistake, and they consider it a LOW INTEREST LOAN. when you come out openly and say, i tried to fuck you guys out of some money, then your going to jail. they won't come after you because you cheated them out of $150 bucks. they've done some stupid shit but they're not dumb enough to send a guy to your town, pay him 100 dollars plus expenses to come audit you per day. Where’s the violence here? Where’s the jail time here? And in this statement the person doing this has not only lied to the IRS once but twice and got away with it.

1. political cronies, all i meant by that is talk to someone about it, or do something about it, all you anarchist do is hand out stickers on college campuses. what else have you SHOWN ME and the rest of the world that your capable of, other then asking questions. it is a personal attack, an outright one at that too. what have anarchist done in recent history to change the world?

Not an anarchist. Libertarian. Doug is the anarchist.

ok, honest mistake. I still want to see what your capable of.

2. that was not an appeal to force, or consequence. i was informing you that there are other solutions to YOUR problem. As in round up your 'cronies' and change your situation. revolt, i'm encouraging you, not trying to tell you your wrong. we need a revolutionary. I was told about this situation in Quatar by students from that country. I thought it was cool except about the killing part. but seriously, 80K, health care....what's to BITCH about? it's just an example, there are other options out there, go look for them.

I don't want a revolt. Those generally involve the initation of force, and I'm against that. Also, it's not my job to look for information to prove your point for you. If you want to make a point, then provide your own sources and information.

sure you do. when i say revolution i mean a political revolution. not war, not blood, but rather new policy and change. you know changes need to be made, and you want them done. the thing about a revolutionist is that the movement doesn't even have to be successful, it's just got to scare the norm's into meeting you 1/2 way. because they know, hey they'll over take us. it's been done before, what's stopping this movement right now?

3. what part didn't you understand? i'll be happy to clarify myself.

Pretty much all of it. I read it to say "American are fat, arrogant, jackasses, but that's just fine." Which makes no sense to me at all.

i see, what i was trying to get at there is that hey, you and me, and mostly everyone around us, we work hard for whatever we have. look around rural america, they don't have much. the rest of the world thinks were fat slobs that overindulge because they see the small percentage of wealthy and consider all of the US to be that way. in reality people work overtime and more then one job to make ends meet, and even then they need government help. it's in response to your "quit taxing everyone and you'll have more time to spend with your kids, give me more money government paragraph."

4. your right that's what it is. i'm proud of my right to bitch about minor things. in case you haven't noticed i bitch alot about stuff that pertains to government officials. i plan on doing something about it by voting against them, what are you gonna do about your problems?

Between work and classes, there's not a lot I can do about it right now. I haven't seen any local politicians that believe in what I do, since I'm in Nebraska and all, so voting is really a waste of my time. For now, I'm happy with pointing out the flaws in the system of government you so righteously preach. However, your complete and total inability to answer the most critical of my questions is beginning to grate, and I'm guessing that if you deal with all your problems by ignoring them in a similar fashion, then not doing anything is putting me right up on par with you.

So, again, where, exactly, do you get the right to tell me how to live my life, so long as I am not depriving you of your life, your property, or your liberty?

that's where your taxes come in, find a couple of grants low interest loans, maybe federal aid programs that your paying for, and you won't have to work as much. dual credit programs are a government entity (in some cases). it's available, if you want it go get it, your paying for it anyway.

there wasn't a republican majority in Texas since reconstruction, and there's one now. there aint no one in your part of the country that believes in the same things you do? i don't believe that. find them, assemble, start your movement and gain respect. then as you build your movement, send a few of your best and brightest into a few elections to threaten the norm's. (who elect not so bright people.) you'll get their attention by stealing their votes, their elections, and their seats in your unicameral legislature. and when you've stolen enough to basically oust a party out of the majority, you go for the governorship and take all the votes you can from the favorite. then someone will come to your table and meet your demands. hijack their system, then destroy it.

i've already answered your tax question. you want me to move onto drugs? those two issues are your main concern, prove to me that services provided by the government should not be creating realized income in the form of tax. your attempt to put up this facade of a violent government didn't disprove it.

[Narbus]

and god willing you'll have enough to pay for every health emergency that comes along. you need any help, the feds will help you out.

No, if I need help I'll turn to family, insurance, loans, etc etc etc. I don't need the government to baby me, dammit.

that's right, it's still not an agreement, it's something they do for a child's benefit. same goes for government and the people who are being governed.

No, it's not the same. Children are not capable of rational thought and actions. They're too busy mastering basic motor skills, writing, reading, etc. They have neither the experience nor the maturity needed to act in a rational manner. I have both. I don't need some great higher up teaching me. I am capable of it myself.

go to the texas monthly website, or check out a Laredo news paper from about a month back. members of organized crime in Nuevo Laredo shot the Mexican equivalent of the head of the swat team a bunch of times because he cut into their drug trade. i'm close to the border, i hear/see these types of things, i don't have to prove my sources to you. all i got to do is open my ears and listen to the stupid shit around me. you don't hear about it because you don't want to hear about it. open up man, what's new in Nebraska? I think something’s up out there, something that’s fueling this discussion. I don’t think federal law against pot is annoying you, I think it’s state anti-pot laws that’s getting to you.

1. Nebraska is all about the meth. We have a rather convienient highway running parallel to the interstate that apparently makes it rather easy to transport the stuff. Since our economy is based in a major way on agriculture, getting the chemicals needed to make the stuff is rather easy.
2. If you want me to believe you, then yes, you do need to provide sources.
3. State or federal, I don't care. Government of any kind butting into my life like that is not something I like.

this is a better non-realistic scenario. someone robs you at gun point, takes your money, the next day you wake up and there are keys to a new car in your possession. you go out to the garage and there's a new car, bought by your $22.75 that you got jacked from you the other night. you gonna take the car, or are you gonna feel cheated and deny yourself of this new toy that you only paid $22.75 into?

Honestly, since it's purchased with a lot of stolen money, I probably wouldn't touch it.
Also: Let's say I'm an older person, and I need that money for that health problem you talked about. Now, I've been robbed for 22.75 monthly for the past 50-odd years. That works out to be ~$13,650 dollars. Just what I needed for my expenses. Lookee there. Had I been left to my own machinations, I'd be just fine.
Also, your math is off. So I get a new car. Where did the rest of the money come from for that car? It had to come from somewhere...Oh, hey, look. Everyone in my city is missing $22.75, but I'm the only person in town with a new car. How is that fair?

PS: I'm still not happy about being robbed.

but that is just that in real life government doesn't hold a gun to your head. if you lie on your taxes, the IRS does a random audit, finds out your off a little, just open your check book. tell them honest mistake, how much do i owe you? they are NOT going to throw you in jail, in fact despite your beliefs to them, it's an honest mistake, and they consider it a LOW INTEREST LOAN. when you come out openly and say, i tried to fuck you guys out of some money, then your going to jail. they won't come after you because you cheated them out of $150 bucks. they've done some stupid shit but they're not dumb enough to send a guy to your town, pay him 100 dollars plus expenses to come audit you per day. Where’s the violence here? Where’s the jail time here? And in this statement the person doing this has not only lied to the IRS once but twice and got away with it. .

Yes, they do hold a gun to my head. If I don't give them money, men come and forcibly imprision me. Your little scenario involves me lying to the government, then giving them my money anyway. If I refuse to give up the money that I have worked for, then I go to jail under penalty of gun. I call that robbery. What do you call it?

sure you do. when i say revolution i mean a political revolution. not war, not blood, but rather new policy and change. you know changes need to be made, and you want them done. the thing about a revolutionist is that the movement doesn't even have to be successful, it's just got to scare the norm's into meeting you 1/2 way. because they know, hey they'll over take us. it's been done before, what's stopping this movement right now?

Part of our platform is to be left alone. Makes it rather hard to gather funds.

i see, what i was trying to get at there is that hey, you and me, and mostly everyone around us, we work hard for whatever we have.

No, we don't all work hard for what we have. See: Kennedy's, Bush's, etc.

look around rural america, they don't have much.

In case you missed it, I do live in Nebraska.

the rest of the world thinks were fat slobs that overindulge because they see the small percentage of wealthy and consider all of the US to be that way. in reality people work overtime and more then one job to make ends meet, and even then they need government help.

A small, real-life, example. I have a friend who recently got his masters in engineering, and found a job. He receives $1617 every two weeks for his job.
Taxes take ~$425 out. Every two weeks. That's 1/4 of his paycheck. He is spending 3 months out of the year working for money that he doesn't get.
If you really want to know why people need to get second jobs, and apply for governmental aid, and so on, then I will reference you to the above example.

it's in response to your "quit taxing everyone and you'll have more time to spend with your kids, give me more money government paragraph."

So you're saying I'm an idiot because I think that there's a rather unpleasant cycle involved in taxation? How about you actually point out the flaw in my argument, rather than just fling names about?

that's where your taxes come in, find a couple of grants low interest loans, maybe federal aid programs that your paying for, and you won't have to work as much. dual credit programs are a government entity (in some cases). it's available, if you want it go get it, your paying for it anyway.

Or, I could not be taxed, and not have to work as much. My way cuts out a lot of paperwork, a lot of phone calls, and a lot of headaches, and since we're both discussing a way for me to simply have access to my own money, I'd say my way wins!

there wasn't a republican majority in Texas since reconstruction, and there's one now. there aint no one in your part of the country that believes in the same things you do? i don't believe that. find them, assemble, start your movement and gain respect. then as you build your movement, send a few of your best and brightest into a few elections to threaten the norm's. (who elect not so bright people.) you'll get their attention by stealing their votes, their elections, and their seats in your unicameral legislature. and when you've stolen enough to basically oust a party out of the majority, you go for the governorship and take all the votes you can from the favorite. then someone will come to your table and meet your demands. hijack their system, then destroy it.

I wait tables for a living, and I've got 15 credit hours of purely engineering classes staring me in the face come August. I honest-to-God don't have the time to start up a political party. Really. The only reason I can post as much as I do now is because I'm not taking any summer classes.
As much as I would honestly like to get something like this going, it's simply not physically possible for it to happen unless I start taking a LOT of speed.

i've already answered your tax question. you want me to move onto drugs? those two issues are your main concern, prove to me that services provided by the government should not be creating realized income in the form of tax. your attempt to put up this facade of a violent government didn't disprove it.

1. No, you haven't answered my tax question. You've provided some means for me to attempt to skirt the law, and suggested I go and apply to have my own money given to me. That's not answering my question.
2. Coming from someone who suggests that smoking pot causes a drug lord to "harvest organs" from some mexican women, you really have no room to be talking about "facades of violence."
3. If you honestly think that paying someone to tell you how to live your life is a good idea, I'll send you my address. I'm an excellent life-planner. Yes, I know I've never met you, but hey. We've talked on an internet message board. That's WAY more contact than I've had with Washington DC, and they still tell me what to do.
4. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p594.pdf <--.pdf file
This is from the official IRS website. If you don't pay your taxes, it turns out they'll put a lien on your property. If that doesn't take, they'll levy your property. I would call that theft, and rather violent, yes.

[Corey]

Surely, you don't believe that you could have a Libertarian government without paying taxes....

[Narbus]

That's an interesting question.
In theory, it should be possible to simply have user fees for a service, and pay no taxes. Of course, the reality is that there could be a sort of "dry spell" in crime, and the police etc. would have to close down. Then crime comes back, and poop.

Now, accepting this reality, we charge taxes for a government that exists only to protect its citizens. This is GREATLY less money than a government waging a billion dollars/week war over non-existant weapons charges. Also less than a government keeping a lot of non-violent potheads in prison charges, and so on. Nowhere near the amount of money it currently costs, and the money is actually spent on stuff people can pretty much all agree on. "Would you like to be killed?" or "Would you like your house robbed?" are much more cut-n-dry questions than "Is gay marriage ok?" and other, more moral, issues, which government has no place in deciding.

[Bandalero]

and god willing you'll have enough to pay for every health emergency that comes along. you need any help, the feds will help you out.

No, if I need help I'll turn to family, insurance, loans, etc etc etc. I don't need the government to baby me, dammit.

ok, pay for something that your not ever going to use.

that's right, it's still not an agreement, it's something they do for a child's benefit. same goes for government and the people who are being governed.

No, it's not the same. Children are not capable of rational thought and actions. They're too busy mastering basic motor skills, writing, reading, etc. They have neither the experience nor the maturity needed to act in a rational manner. I have both. I don't need some great higher up teaching me. I am capable of it myself.

your not capible of rational thought either. no one thinks rationally. what rational excuse/benifit do you get from doing drugs?

go to the texas monthly website, or check out a Laredo news paper from about a month back. members of organized crime in Nuevo Laredo shot the Mexican equivalent of the head of the swat team a bunch of times because he cut into their drug trade. i'm close to the border, i hear/see these types of things, i don't have to prove my sources to you. all i got to do is open my ears and listen to the stupid shit around me. you don't hear about it because you don't want to hear about it. open up man, what's new in Nebraska? I think something&#8217;s up out there, something that&#8217;s fueling this discussion. I don&#8217;t think federal law against pot is annoying you, I think it&#8217;s state anti-pot laws that&#8217;s getting to you.

1. Nebraska is all about the meth. We have a rather convienient highway running parallel to the interstate that apparently makes it rather easy to transport the stuff. Since our economy is based in a major way on agriculture, getting the chemicals needed to make the stuff is rather easy.
2. If you want me to believe you, then yes, you do need to provide sources.
3. State or federal, I don't care. Government of any kind butting into my life like that is not something I like.

ok.
1. meth labs and the chemicals they produce tend to be highly flamable. when in production something goes wrong and the house around the block blows up and starts a fire that burns down the neighbors property, does that not hurt anyone else? what caused the fire, meth-lab. why is there a meth-lab, because there's a demand for it. the demand is the root of this problem. the state has to fight this problem instead of funding better highways or education. it hurts everyone.
2. right because i like to sit around and make this shit up. open your eyes and see that your at fault in many problems as am i.
3. and who's going to protect you from yourself? your assumption that you yourself can think rationally for yourself if pushed into a desperate situation will only blind you into beliveing that what your doing is rational, but society will look at you and your situation and consider you, crazy. and society is responsible for you and your "needs"

this is a better non-realistic scenario. someone robs you at gun point, takes your money, the next day you wake up and there are keys to a new car in your possession. you go out to the garage and there's a new car, bought by your $22.75 that you got jacked from you the other night. you gonna take the car, or are you gonna feel cheated and deny yourself of this new toy that you only paid $22.75 into?

Honestly, since it's purchased with a lot of stolen money, I probably wouldn't touch it.
Also: Let's say I'm an older person, and I need that money for that health problem you talked about. Now, I've been robbed for 22.75 monthly for the past 50-odd years. That works out to be ~$13,650 dollars. Just what I needed for my expenses. Lookee there. Had I been left to my own machinations, I'd be just fine.
Also, your math is off. So I get a new car. Where did the rest of the money come from for that car? It had to come from somewhere...Oh, hey, look. Everyone in my city is missing $22.75, but I'm the only person in town with a new car. How is that fair?

PS: I'm still not happy about being robbed.

it is fair because just like you, their $22.75 bought each and everyone of them a new car. remember, government programs paid by tax money cannot be bias toward anyone. everyone reaps the benifit of their own $22.75, not just you. the only way you don't get your car is if you don't accept it.

as for the senoir missing 13,650, get a grant, you'll get your money for your needs. you paid for it, your entitled to it. where's the gun, where's the force? where's the robbery?

but that is just that in real life government doesn't hold a gun to your head. if you lie on your taxes, the IRS does a random audit, finds out your off a little, just open your check book. tell them honest mistake, how much do i owe you? they are NOT going to throw you in jail, in fact despite your beliefs to them, it's an honest mistake, and they consider it a LOW INTEREST LOAN. when you come out openly and say, i tried to fuck you guys out of some money, then your going to jail. they won't come after you because you cheated them out of $150 bucks. they've done some stupid shit but they're not dumb enough to send a guy to your town, pay him 100 dollars plus expenses to come audit you per day. Where&#8217;s the violence here? Where&#8217;s the jail time here? And in this statement the person doing this has not only lied to the IRS once but twice and got away with it. .

Yes, they do hold a gun to my head. If I don't give them money, men come and forcibly imprision me. Your little scenario involves me lying to the government, then giving them my money anyway. If I refuse to give up the money that I have worked for, then I go to jail under penalty of gun. I call that robbery. What do you call it?

that's correct if you do not pay for the services that are provided for you, the person/government who has been cheated out of his income can call the authorities and charge you with robbery.

sure you do. when i say revolution i mean a political revolution. not war, not blood, but rather new policy and change. you know changes need to be made, and you want them done. the thing about a revolutionist is that the movement doesn't even have to be successful, it's just got to scare the norm's into meeting you 1/2 way. because they know, hey they'll over take us. it's been done before, what's stopping this movement right now?

Part of our platform is to be left alone. Makes it rather hard to gather funds.

......k, then ask for that then.

i see, what i was trying to get at there is that hey, you and me, and mostly everyone around us, we work hard for whatever we have.

No, we don't all work hard for what we have. See: Kennedy's, Bush's, etc.

look around rural america, they don't have much.

In case you missed it, I do live in Nebraska. [/quote]

exactly, we don't have kenedy's a bush's in Texas or Nebraska.(yale boy is from another state, he fakes his texas accent and had office here) the majority of people in rural areas get paid poorly, have regular needs then most better paid city folk, and might need some assistance.

the rest of the world thinks were fat slobs that overindulge because they see the small percentage of wealthy and consider all of the US to be that way. in reality people work overtime and more then one job to make ends meet, and even then they need government help.

A small, real-life, example. I have a friend who recently got his masters in engineering, and found a job. He receives $1617 every two weeks for his job.
Taxes take ~$425 out. Every two weeks. That's 1/4 of his paycheck. He is spending 3 months out of the year working for money that he doesn't get.
If you really want to know why people need to get second jobs, and apply for governmental aid, and so on, then I will reference you to the above example.

ok, let's say he gets the full check, how much does he have to work until he buys one mile of road to go to work. (that's exclusively his since he bought it he himself owns it.) it costs 1.2 million dollars to create one mile of 2 lane road. he'll never pay it off. he can cut the cost if he buddies up with someone, but here's a thought. let everyone use it, and everyone pay pennies for it. it sounds alot better to me.

it's in response to your "quit taxing everyone and you'll have more time to spend with your kids, give me more money government paragraph."

So you're saying I'm an idiot because I think that there's a rather unpleasant cycle involved in taxation? How about you actually point out the flaw in my argument, rather than just fling names about?

those are actual quotes from your argument. i'm useing what you said to title what you said. (if that makes sense)

that's where your taxes come in, find a couple of grants low interest loans, maybe federal aid programs that your paying for, and you won't have to work as much. dual credit programs are a government entity (in some cases). it's available, if you want it go get it, your paying for it anyway.

Or, I could not be taxed, and not have to work as much. My way cuts out a lot of paperwork, a lot of phone calls, and a lot of headaches, and since we're both discussing a way for me to simply have access to my own money, I'd say my way wins!

i'd say that too, except that tax thing. cause you know, you'd spend the rest of your life paying for an exclusive road to work, and die trying to finish financing it.

there wasn't a republican majority in Texas since reconstruction, and there's one now. there aint no one in your part of the country that believes in the same things you do? i don't believe that. find them, assemble, start your movement and gain respect. then as you build your movement, send a few of your best and brightest into a few elections to threaten the norm's. (who elect not so bright people.) you'll get their attention by stealing their votes, their elections, and their seats in your unicameral legislature. and when you've stolen enough to basically oust a party out of the majority, you go for the governorship and take all the votes you can from the favorite. then someone will come to your table and meet your demands. hijack their system, then destroy it.

I wait tables for a living, and I've got 15 credit hours of purely engineering classes staring me in the face come August. I honest-to-God don't have the time to start up a political party. Really. The only reason I can post as much as I do now is because I'm not taking any summer classes.
As much as I would honestly like to get something like this going, it's simply not physically possible for it to happen unless I start taking a LOT of speed.

your busy, that's understandable. but in discussion amongst friends or people of that hold your same beliefs, mention it. this kind of thing takes years to put into motion, it starts with talk, but it should progress into something else farther down the road. that's why politicians are usually old people, they're old, they're dying, they got nothing better to do other then meet up at luby's and talk about them good olde days.

i've already answered your tax question. you want me to move onto drugs? those two issues are your main concern, prove to me that services provided by the government should not be creating realized income in the form of tax. your attempt to put up this facade of a violent government didn't disprove it.

1. No, you haven't answered my tax question. You've provided some means for me to attempt to skirt the law, and suggested I go and apply to have my own money given to me. That's not answering my question.
2. Coming from someone who suggests that smoking pot causes a drug lord to "harvest organs" from some mexican women, you really have no room to be talking about "facades of violence."
3. If you honestly think that paying someone to tell you how to live your life is a good idea, I'll send you my address. I'm an excellent life-planner. Yes, I know I've never met you, but hey. We've talked on an internet message board. That's WAY more contact than I've had with Washington DC, and they still tell me what to do.
4. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p594.pdf <--.pdf file
This is from the official IRS website. If you don't pay your taxes, it turns out they'll put a lien on your property. If that doesn't take, they'll levy your property. I would call that theft, and rather violent, yes.

1. i've told you why taxes are in place and how you benifit from these taxes by paying pennies for expansive projects and services, and how if you play your cards right you can live life without paying taxes and reaping all the benifits of being a tax payer.

2. this comming from the guy that thinks government is gonna shoot and kill you for not paying your "Low Interest Loan" tell you what, i'll see what i can dig up. (source wise)

3. you've sent more letters (and checks)to the government then to me, you know them better then you know me.

4. "This document is for information only. Although it discusses the legal authority that allows the IRS to collect taxes, it is not a perscise and technical analysis of the law." - from page one of your pdf file. (hey look at me i've found a source)
and like i said earlier, your benifiting from a service provided and your refusing to pay for it. any merchant will press charges on you. if your gonna steal from these guys do it right, and legal.

[mosaik]

a libertarian government would work, trust me.

does anybody have a reason for not wanting it?

[Narbus]

ok, pay for something that your not ever going to use.

?? Are you talking about insurance? I'm only 23 and already I've used my parents insurance many times in my life. If I have kids, then it's a given that I'll use the insurance I pay for.

your not capible of rational thought either. no one thinks rationally. what rational excuse/benifit do you get from doing drugs?

Being capable of and actually using rational thought are two different things. The point is that I can think for myself, and act in rational manner. If I get cancer so be it, I made the choice myself. I weighed the pros and cons, and decided. The choice is what counts.

ok.
1. meth labs and the chemicals they produce tend to be highly flamable. when in production something goes wrong and the house around the block blows up and starts a fire that burns down the neighbors property, does that not hurt anyone else? what caused the fire, meth-lab. why is there a meth-lab, because there's a demand for it. the demand is the root of this problem. the state has to fight this problem instead of funding better highways or education. it hurts everyone.

In a libertarian society, this would be taken into account. Using explosive chemicals in a residential neighborhood is not rational, and does endager the life and property of others, so this would be a case where the police would be called.
Interesting to note: Pot needs no such chemicals. So what's wrong with it?

2. right because i like to sit around and make this shit up. open your eyes and see that your at fault in many problems as am i.

"Open your eyes." Convienient way of attempting to put the weight of proving your side on my shoulders. Also a convienient way of making it look like there's a lot of evidence out there when there isn't. Provide credible sources for your statements, or I will call you on them.

3. and who's going to protect you from yourself? your assumption that you yourself can think rationally for yourself if pushed into a desperate situation will only blind you into beliveing that what your doing is rational, but society will look at you and your situation and consider you, crazy. and society is responsible for you and your "needs"

Why do I need protection from myself?
In a desperate situation, I'll still think rationally and do what I have to. What are you talking about?
Society is not responsible for my "needs." I am. If society were actually responsible, then it would be perfectly fine for me to go to the grocery store and just take whatever I want. It's their responsiblity to keep me fed, after all.

This entire paragraph tells me that you have no idea what you're trying to say here, and really have no way of refuting what I've said so far. You're clearly grasping at straws here.

it is fair because just like you, their $22.75 bought each and everyone of them a new car. remember, government programs paid by tax money cannot be bias toward anyone. everyone reaps the benifit of their own $22.75, not just you. the only way you don't get your car is if you don't accept it.

Okay. What, and I want exact make, model, and year, new car can you buy for $22.75? I don't know of any. Even if you try and build the new car from scratch, there are research costs, the costs of building the factory, and I'm willing to bet that materials alone for each car greatly exceed $22.75. All that extra money has to come from somewhere, and that means that someone isn't getting a car, but they're paying the money anyway.

as for the senoir missing 13,650, get a grant, you'll get your money for your needs. you paid for it, your entitled to it. where's the gun, where's the force? where's the robbery?

If I'm entitled to it, then why is it being taken in the first place? And the gun is when I say, "No, I want to keep my money, thank you very much," and they send over serious men with very thin watches.

that's correct if you do not pay for the services that are provided for you, the person/government who has been cheated out of his income can call the authorities and charge you with robbery.

Ok. Let's go back to the car scenario. Yes, I lost 22.75 and got a new car. But I just bought a new car last week. I don't want a new car. I want 22.75 for gas money. But no. The choice has been made for me. That's what this always comes back to. The choice. If I choose to buy a car, then I will. I don't need some "higher power" taking control of my life for me. I am a thinking person capable of making my own decisions.
Those services are likewise forced upon me. I don't want a war half a planet away eating up $1,000,000,000 a week. But that choice was forced upon me, and I'm just supposed to take it. Why?

exactly, we don't have kenedy's a bush's in Texas or Nebraska.(yale boy is from another state, he fakes his texas accent and had office here) the majority of people in rural areas get paid poorly, have regular needs then most better paid city folk, and might need some assistance.

Why am I responsible for other people's needs? I had nothing to do with their current situation, why do I have to pick up after them?

ok, let's say he gets the full check, how much does he have to work until he buys one mile of road to go to work. (that's exclusively his since he bought it he himself owns it.) it costs 1.2 million dollars to create one mile of 2 lane road. he'll never pay it off. he can cut the cost if he buddies up with someone, but here's a thought. let everyone use it, and everyone pay pennies for it. it sounds alot better to me.

Fine. By all means. But there are ~1.7 million people in nebraska right now. I greatly doubt that it takes 722,500,000,000 (425 from everyone) for upkeep on existing roads. PS: Those roads do exist. If we suddenly adopt anarchy or a libertarian government, we're not going to tear them up.

those are actual quotes from your argument. i'm useing what you said to title what you said. (if that makes sense)

Nope. Still have no idea why you said I was an idiot.

i'd say that too, except that tax thing. cause you know, you'd spend the rest of your life paying for an exclusive road to work, and die trying to finish financing it.

See above.

your busy, that's understandable. but in discussion amongst friends or people of that hold your same beliefs, mention it. this kind of thing takes years to put into motion, it starts with talk, but it should progress into something else farther down the road. that's why politicians are usually old people, they're old, they're dying, they got nothing better to do other then meet up at luby's and talk about them good olde days.

I do mention it. Ok.

1. i've told you why taxes are in place and how you benifit from these taxes by paying pennies for expansive projects and services, and how if you play your cards right you can live life without paying taxes and reaping all the benifits of being a tax payer.

No, you haven't. I can understand things like "roads," and "police." Those are part of a libertarian government. Those are fine. It's things like the money spent on prosecuting people for gay sex. Or the money spent imprisioning non-violent drug offenders. Or the money spent on NASA, or the war, or welfare, or whatever else. It's my money being spent on a whole lot of shit that doesn't do a single damn thing to benefit me. It's the government forcing me to hold certain morals, and to just deal with for no reason except they have the big guns. Because they spent my money developing them. That's my problem.

2. this comming from the guy that thinks government is gonna shoot and kill you for not paying your "Low Interest Loan" tell you what, i'll see what i can dig up. (source wise)

1. I say, "No. I will not pay these taxes."
2. The IRS says, "Yes, you will."
3. I say, "No."
4. They send over police.
5. I say, "No, I will not go to jail."
6. They say, "You're resisting arrest," and shoot me.
Pretty clear series of steps.

3. you've sent more letters (and checks)to the government then to me, you know them better then you know me.

...
Sending a check to a person is not the same thing as holding any kind of conversation with them. Really. It's not.

4. "This document is for information only. Although it discusses the legal authority that allows the IRS to collect taxes, it is not a perscise and technical analysis of the law." - from page one of your pdf file. (hey look at me i've found a source)

And? It discusses the legal authority the IRS has. It's not a legal document, because those are hard to follow. It doesn't change the fact that if you don't pay taxes, they can come to your house and take it from you.

and like i said earlier, your benifiting from a service provided and your refusing to pay for it. any merchant will press charges on you. if your gonna steal from these guys do it right, and legal.

STILL MISSING THE POINT.
If I go to Best Buy, and purchase a CD, then I have chosen to provide money to the company in exchange for material possessions, and they have decided that the amount of money I offer is acceptable for that exchange. We both decide to enter into a mutually beneficial agreement.
What the government does is drag me to the store, pick out a cd for me that I may not even like, and force me to pay for. Generally while setting whatever price they like.

Not the same.

[Corey]

That's an interesting question.
In theory, it should be possible to simply have user fees for a service, and pay no taxes. Of course, the reality is that there could be a sort of "dry spell" in crime, and the police etc. would have to close down. Then crime comes back, and poop.

Now, accepting this reality, we charge taxes for a government that exists only to protect its citizens. This is GREATLY less money than a government waging a billion dollars/week war over non-existant weapons charges. Also less than a government keeping a lot of non-violent potheads in prison charges, and so on. Nowhere near the amount of money it currently costs, and the money is actually spent on stuff people can pretty much all agree on. "Would you like to be killed?" or "Would you like your house robbed?" are much more cut-n-dry questions than "Is gay marriage ok?" and other, more moral, issues, which government has no place in deciding.

ahh we're getting somewhere.... So who decides how much tax money is enough? Who decides which human rights are essential and which won't be enforced?

[Narbus]

The right to life, liberty, and property of their citizens are the only rights that the government should protect. The money goes to protecting those rights.

[Bandalero]

ok, pay for something that your not ever going to use.

?? Are you talking about insurance? I'm only 23 and already I've used my parents insurance many times in my life. If I have kids, then it's a given that I'll use the insurance I pay for.

nope, about government programs.

your not capible of rational thought either. no one thinks rationally. what rational excuse/benifit do you get from doing drugs?

Being capable of and actually using rational thought are two different things. The point is that I can think for myself, and act in rational manner. If I get cancer so be it, I made the choice myself. I weighed the pros and cons, and decided. The choice is what counts.

the opinion that what your doing is rational and actually doing something that is indeed rational can two different things. the not so educated might thinks it's rational to decorate his living rooms walls by throwing shit on the walls, when the rational thing to do is use paint. you'll be suprised how stupid the public are, given their liberty, they'll only hurt themselves and others.

ok.
1. meth labs and the chemicals they produce tend to be highly flamable. when in production something goes wrong and the house around the block blows up and starts a fire that burns down the neighbors property, does that not hurt anyone else? what caused the fire, meth-lab. why is there a meth-lab, because there's a demand for it. the demand is the root of this problem. the state has to fight this problem instead of funding better highways or education. it hurts everyone.

In a libertarian society, this would be taken into account. Using explosive chemicals in a residential neighborhood is not rational, and does endager the life and property of others, so this would be a case where the police would be called.
Interesting to note: Pot needs no such chemicals. So what's wrong with it?

i see, but "the men with the big guns" can't press charges on you for essentially stealing? that's selective law enforcement. would you rather the meth labs be in comercial areas? you could put them on refinery row, but of course if it blows, every other refinery will too.

as for pot two letters...K B.

2. right because i like to sit around and make this shit up. open your eyes and see that your at fault in many problems as am i.

"Open your eyes." Convienient way of attempting to put the weight of proving your side on my shoulders. Also a convienient way of making it look like there's a lot of evidence out there when there isn't. Provide credible sources for your statements, or I will call you on them.

look up Juarez, Mexico on any search engine, you'll find this story everywhere. I don't have time to scan the whole freaking story out of Texas monthly, but if you want go to their web site, register, and see the story for yourself. you want a source here's one.
http://www.protectionproject.org/daily_news/2003/ne55.htm
there are others, but more importantly, there's talk along the border itself that it extends alot farther then Juarez, mexico.

3. and who's going to protect you from yourself? your assumption that you yourself can think rationally for yourself if pushed into a desperate situation will only blind you into beliveing that what your doing is rational, but society will look at you and your situation and consider you, crazy. and society is responsible for you and your "needs"

Why do I need protection from myself?
In a desperate situation, I'll still think rationally and do what I have to. What are you talking about?
Society is not responsible for my "needs." I am. If society were actually responsible, then it would be perfectly fine for me to go to the grocery store and just take whatever I want. It's their responsiblity to keep me fed, after all.

This entire paragraph tells me that you have no idea what you're trying to say here, and really have no way of refuting what I've said so far. You're clearly grasping at straws here.

what life threatening desperate situation have you encountered? how do you know that your gonna be thinking rationally in these times? what makes rational thought rational? who decides that? where's the line that clearly marks all rational thought from non-rational thought? what you might consider rational is irrational to others, and they'll put you in a ward, where they will feed you, because it's their responsability to keep you fed, clothed, and from decorating your walls with your own shit.

it is fair because just like you, their $22.75 bought each and everyone of them a new car. remember, government programs paid by tax money cannot be bias toward anyone. everyone reaps the benifit of their own $22.75, not just you. the only way you don't get your car is if you don't accept it.

Okay. What, and I want exact make, model, and year, new car can you buy for $22.75? I don't know of any. Even if you try and build the new car from scratch, there are research costs, the costs of building the factory, and I'm willing to bet that materials alone for each car greatly exceed $22.75. All that extra money has to come from somewhere, and that means that someone isn't getting a car, but they're paying the money anyway.

in case you haven't noticed there's a big ass national debt people are bitching about. government is not a profit organization, if anything it's a deficit organization. they'll pay stiepends to all steel workers, factory workers, and retail workers if they have to.

as for the senoir missing 13,650, get a grant, you'll get your money for your needs. you paid for it, your entitled to it. where's the gun, where's the force? where's the robbery?

If I'm entitled to it, then why is it being taken in the first place? And the gun is when I say, "No, I want to keep my money, thank you very much," and they send over serious men with very thin watches.

because you have to pay for other government services.

that's correct if you do not pay for the services that are provided for you, the person/government who has been cheated out of his income can call the authorities and charge you with robbery.

Ok. Let's go back to the car scenario. Yes, I lost 22.75 and got a new car. But I just bought a new car last week. I don't want a new car. I want 22.75 for gas money. But no. The choice has been made for me. That's what this always comes back to. The choice. If I choose to buy a car, then I will. I don't need some "higher power" taking control of my life for me. I am a thinking person capable of making my own decisions.
Those services are likewise forced upon me. I don't want a war half a planet away eating up $1,000,000,000 a week. But that choice was forced upon me, and I'm just supposed to take it. Why?

why would you buy a car when the government announced that hey, your getting a car, it'll take 6 months to get to your drive way, almost 6 months ago? and even then, you could file for a refund of the price of your car and more then likely get your gas money back. this little car scenario is just that, a little non-scale scenario. it's held up well in theory to the broader picture scenarios that you've thrown at it , but you and i both know, hey that would bankrupt government.

you do have a choice, you could have rallied around someone else during elections. you didn't say no to a particular canidates policies that included cars given to everyone, or war in certain scenarios. you said nothing at all, and when you say nothing at all, your actually saying yes.

exactly, we don't have kenedy's a bush's in Texas or Nebraska.(yale boy is from another state, he fakes his texas accent and had office here) the majority of people in rural areas get paid poorly, have regular needs then most better paid city folk, and might need some assistance.

Why am I responsible for other people's needs? I had nothing to do with their current situation, why do I have to pick up after them?

actually you did. you eat food off of a poor farmers lands. you could have engineered food from some plant in the city, but that costs too much. you could also plant your own crops, but you need a government grant or loan to buy the tractor that on average runs about 1/4 mill. and when times are really rough for the farmer that supplies you with food, he'll get a low interest loan from government aid, to keep at it and make the payments on the tractor. or you don't eat what the domestic farmer sells, you buy the cheep import. the domestic farmer is now in a terrible situation. government subsidises the farmers crops, keeps the price just as low as imports and everyone is fairly healthy.

ok, let's say he gets the full check, how much does he have to work until he buys one mile of road to go to work. (that's exclusively his since he bought it he himself owns it.) it costs 1.2 million dollars to create one mile of 2 lane road. he'll never pay it off. he can cut the cost if he buddies up with someone, but here's a thought. let everyone use it, and everyone pay pennies for it. it sounds alot better to me.

Fine. By all means. But there are ~1.7 million people in nebraska right now. I greatly doubt that it takes 722,500,000,000 (425 from everyone) for upkeep on existing roads. PS: Those roads do exist. If we suddenly adopt anarchy or a libertarian government, we're not going to tear them up.

your right it doesn't take that much to do all the roads in Nebraska. it takes that much to do everything in nebraska. some of that 425 is taken from the feds, from Nebraska if you have a sate income tax. (we don't! ), and hell in some places a city income tax. (don't have that either.) then social security, maybe a health insuance premium, and who knows maybe a company birthday pool or something. not all of the 425 is going directly to the roads of nebraska. it also goes to education, the farmers, federal aid and grants, disaster relief, ect. those roads do exist, but upkeep of those roads will fall on no ones shoulders, and in 5 years you won't have safe realiable roads. to top it off you'll see me in a grant funded John Deere "puttin' the disc" to the road to further damage them.

those are actual quotes from your argument. i'm useing what you said to title what you said. (if that makes sense)

Nope. Still have no idea why you said I was an idiot.

that's the plan.

i'd say that too, except that tax thing. cause you know, you'd spend the rest of your life paying for an exclusive road to work, and die trying to finish financing it.

See above.

yeah, see i'm agreeing with your plans to finance yourself through college, i know it sounds unbelievable but i'm agreeing with you, except on the no tax thing.

your busy, that's understandable. but in discussion amongst friends or people of that hold your same beliefs, mention it. this kind of thing takes years to put into motion, it starts with talk, but it should progress into something else farther down the road. that's why politicians are usually old people, they're old, they're dying, they got nothing better to do other then meet up at luby's and talk about them good olde days.

I do mention it. Ok.

1. i've told you why taxes are in place and how you benifit from these taxes by paying pennies for expansive projects and services, and how if you play your cards right you can live life without paying taxes and reaping all the benifits of being a tax payer.

No, you haven't. I can understand things like "roads," and "police." Those are part of a libertarian government. Those are fine. It's things like the money spent on prosecuting people for gay sex. Or the money spent imprisioning non-violent drug offenders. Or the money spent on NASA, or the war, or welfare, or whatever else. It's my money being spent on a whole lot of shit that doesn't do a single damn thing to benefit me. It's the government forcing me to hold certain morals, and to just deal with for no reason except they have the big guns. Because they spent my money developing them. That's my problem.

how much money was spent peeking into peoples bedrooms last year? drug offenders who need their fix, will steal whatever isn't bolted down to pay for it. try and stop them they'll attack you. those are the violent ones, but seriously, how much longer until times get rough for a guy who can afford it? and also, that's money that could be used to better someone's life. there's no advantage to drugs, other then medical purposes. most junkies don't have medical problems...yet. NASA creates alot of products that are in use comercially today, the war keeps us protected, and others that seek us in their interests protected as well. welfare helps the needy and some people who don't need it, it's a cost of goods sold, you'll find that everywhere in buisness. government doesn't tell you to pray at a certain time, it doesn't expect you to donate at the local donation place. it encourages, but never forces morals on you or anyone.

2. this comming from the guy that thinks government is gonna shoot and kill you for not paying your "Low Interest Loan" tell you what, i'll see what i can dig up. (source wise)

1. I say, "No. I will not pay these taxes."
2. The IRS says, "Yes, you will."
3. I say, "No."
4. They send over police.
5. I say, "No, I will not go to jail."
6. They say, "You're resisting arrest," and shoot me.
Pretty clear series of steps.

here's a better way,

1. learn taxation/hire damn good accountant
2. find loopholes in system.
3. do long form tax returns, claim everything as a buisness/school expense.
4. wait for check in mail from US tresury.
5. spend it, claim purchases for next year.
6. apply for loans, grants, ect.

if your gonna do something do it right.

3. you've sent more letters (and checks)to the government then to me, you know them better then you know me.

...
Sending a check to a person is not the same thing as holding any kind of conversation with them. Really. It's not.

*ahem*...it was a joke. i knew i should have thrown in a smiley or two.

4. "This document is for information only. Although it discusses the legal authority that allows the IRS to collect taxes, it is not a perscise and technical analysis of the law." - from page one of your pdf file. (hey look at me i've found a source)

And? It discusses the legal authority the IRS has. It's not a legal document, because those are hard to follow. It doesn't change the fact that if you don't pay taxes, they can come to your house and take it from you.

if you owe them millions of dollars in back taxes. if it's a grand or two, they don't care, it's not cost effective to liquidize your assets and claim their cash.

and like i said earlier, your benifiting from a service provided and your refusing to pay for it. any merchant will press charges on you. if your gonna steal from these guys do it right, and legal.

STILL MISSING THE POINT.
If I go to Best Buy, and purchase a CD, then I have chosen to provide money to the company in exchange for material possessions, and they have decided that the amount of money I offer is acceptable for that exchange. We both decide to enter into a mutually beneficial agreement.
What the government does is drag me to the store, pick out a cd for me that I may not even like, and force me to pay for. Generally while setting whatever price they like.

Not the same.

your right but look at besy buy and every other company out there. they have a bias....it's a bias toward people willing to pay for each individual service/product out there. people with money, people with a demand. their objective is maximize profits and make money.

government is looking out for it's people, it's not bias toward anyone other then prisoners. it offers services that anyone can have and anyone will recive if they go through the motions. unlike best buy, government doesn't care about a profit line and demand. they want to take care of people at whatever cost, even if that means deficit spending. the only similarities are that you have to pay for your services, and then failure to do so will result in prosecution. that's a given everywhere.