US clouds Iraqi Civillian Deaths

mosaik · Post by **mosaik** » 6/17/2003, 1:16 pm

Time to bring this up again i think.

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/164/oped/US_clouds_Iraqi_civilian_deaths+.shtml

US clouds Iraqi civilian deaths

By Derrick Z. Jackson, 6/13/2003

WHENEVER REPORTERS asked about civilian deaths in the invasion of Iraq, US military officials reflexively plunged into a numbing prattle about the precision of our weaponry, precaution to avoid needless carnage, and promises to investigate possible mistakes.

In late March, after an American missile hit a marketplace in Baghdad and killed plenty of people - Iraqi officials said 58 - Major General Victor Renuart of Central Command said: ''With every one of those circumstances, we ask the component ... who may have had forces involved, whether it's land, sea, or air, to do an investigation, and that takes a number of days to do that. The air component in this case is completing his review. We think that will be complete within the next day or so. And as soon as ... the review is completed, we'll make that available.

''As to what do we determine to be the cause, I think certainly there are a number of possibilities. We want to make sure that if in fact there was an error on our part, that we found that out and made that available.''

A couple of days later, Brigadier General Vincent Brooks, the deputy director of operations for Central Command, said: ''There is an ongoing investigation; still I think we are starting to come to a high degree of closure on it. We are still accounting for every weapon system that we released into the Baghdad area. And once we've gotten to closure on that, I think we will be able to say one way or another what role we may have played, or not.''

On April 1, Brooks was asked by a reporter if he could give a date to give the results of the investigation. Brooks responded by saying: ''Well, I can't give you a date. I mean, it takes as long as it takes. And it ought to be thorough. We're not going to waste time with them, but we are going to be thorough about the work that's being done.... Our designs are to minimize the casualties to civilians as much as we can. We'd like to see that be zero. That is not something that's ever been achieved in warfare. We believe our efforts have driven it as low as it has ever been driven in warfare.''

Two and a half months after the prattle, we now have the terrible truth. There never was an investigation. That fact was embedded (pun intended) in an Associated Press report this week that it has so far counted 3,240 Iraqi civilians killed in the invasion, including nearly 1,900 in Baghdad. The AP quoted Central Command spokesman John Morgan confirming the nonexistence of an investigation.

Americans should be shocked that journalists are piecing together a history of the war that our military is trying to bury with the bodies.

The AP report said it took pains to exclude from its count all records of hospital deaths that did not distinguish between civilians and soldiers. It also noted that many other victims didn't die in hospitals but were lost in the rubble or buried immediately, according to Islamic custom. As a result, it said, ''hundreds, possibly thousands of victims in the largest cities and most intense battles aren't reflected in the total.''

The numbers are ominous, since in the 1991 Gulf War, 3,500 civilians died in the fighting, and in the months after, 111,000 Iraqis died from the destruction of the nation's health care and transportation infrastructure, according to Beth Osborne Daponte, a professor at Carnegie Mellon University.

On Monday, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer was asked whether he personally felt any remorse over the mounting number of civilian deaths given that no weapons of mass destruction have yet been found. Fleischer did not speak about the people killed by American missiles. All he said was: ''I think when you take a look at all the mass graves that have been discovered all around Iraq, I think the world breathes a sigh of relief that a brutal dictator like Saddam Hussein, who had no regard for human rights, has been removed from power so that the Iraqi people can at long last have a life and build a future that's based on freedom and opportunity, not on tyranny.''

Fleischer said that even before the AP figures were widely known. This is a White House in clear denial. The world and even many Iraqis may breathe sighs of relief right now, but things will change dramatically if the White House and the Pentagon keep choking on lies and deceptions.

Americans were outraged when 3,000 people were killed in the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. Now, between Afghanistan and Iraq, our vengeance has killed way more than that. We rightly demanded that the world care about our innocent dead. Now we wrongly ignore the people we killed. We not only bombed innocent people, we bombed our own innocence.

Derrick Z. Jackson's e-mail address is jackson@globe.com.

Bandalero · Post by **Bandalero** » 6/18/2003, 2:11 pm

hmmmm...i wonder if the foriegn legion has to write reports and investigate shit when they wipe out an entire block because one person on that block killed one of them? me thinks not.

mosaik · Post by **mosaik** » 6/18/2003, 2:26 pm

and obviously, neither do the amerikan military.

Bandalero · Post by **Bandalero** » 6/18/2003, 2:37 pm

so then what's the point of this call for an investigation? no one else does it in the world, why should we? why should american soilders hide behind cars and buildings when the legion walks openly in the middle of the road? this actually happened in a conflict somewhere, and if you think about it, it's happening right now.

mosaik · Post by **mosaik** » 6/18/2003, 2:38 pm

all i want is an admission that you're as bad as the killers you claim to be hunting and i'll be happy

why should you? you're the ones claiming to be liberators - that's why.

Bandalero · Post by **Bandalero** » 6/18/2003, 2:44 pm

and the foriegn legion, when they were called into many a conflict, were they not liberators? all these attacks on US policies or lack there of, and yet your missing the fact that many an army around the world never consider having such policies. does Hamas care if they kill innocent people? do they have red tape and investigative reports to file?

mosaik · Post by **mosaik** » 6/18/2003, 2:46 pm

i'm not missing the fact. you are. i'm saying, the fact is, hamas doesn't have red tape and neither do you.

further

hamas = foreign legion = us army.

that's my point. always has been.

joe_canadian · Post by **joe_canadian** » 6/18/2003, 2:50 pm

no matter how many armies do it, it's still not right. that's a moot point.

Bandalero · Post by **Bandalero** » 6/18/2003, 2:55 pm

yeah but you were one of those people that was against the war because of the innocent civilian situation. these kind of reports and red tape are for your enjoyment and are here to satisfy you. that's the point i'm making, why should we have to bend over backwards to get the public it's report? i think the school systems should teach students about how many innocent civilians have died in wars. so that when you hear WAR you associate it with innocent people dying. that way if some civilians die it won't be a suprise and people won't get their panties in a knot. war is not perfect and will never be. it's just necessary.

mosaik · Post by **mosaik** » 6/18/2003, 3:05 pm

i don't agree that war is

a) neccessary or
b) justification for murder

and i think you're dodging the point here, which is that you're as bad as the killers you just supposedly went into iraq to get rid of.

Bandalero · Post by **Bandalero** » 6/18/2003, 3:21 pm

"we don't murder the enemy, we kill the enemy."

were not as bad as killers that go out and INTENTIONALLY go after civilians. we go after military positions. sometimes missiles go astray, sometimes intel sucks, and sometimes SHIT HAPPENS.

mosaik · Post by **mosaik** » 6/18/2003, 3:28 pm

shit happens, but that doesn't make it any less murder. i can back that up rationally if i need to. just ask me.

and i can provide plenty of examples where you DID intentionally go after civillians.

Bandalero · Post by **Bandalero** » 6/18/2003, 3:37 pm

oh yeah, in hindsight you can actually see that yeah the US went after civilians. but in a landscape where the enemy is taking on civilian clothing and using gurrilla warfare, you have no idea who the enemy is. you won't know if you have killed the enemy until the media catches hold of the situation and shows you the dead bodies of innocent civilians.

mosaik · Post by **mosaik** » 6/18/2003, 3:43 pm

i'm talking mainly about iraqi's killed during protests after the offical war was ended.

Bandalero · Post by **Bandalero** » 6/18/2003, 3:51 pm

yeah the stills of the Humvee driving by spraying right?

mosaik · Post by **mosaik** » 6/18/2003, 3:51 pm

nope.

i'm referring to fallujah.. i hope i spelled that correctly.

Bandalero · Post by **Bandalero** » 6/18/2003, 3:59 pm

the more recent one...ok

the one that's been on the news and has been confired that it was an example of bad intel?

mosaik · Post by **mosaik** » 6/18/2003, 4:02 pm

i've heard of no such confirmation

there were a bunch of protestors, the US army said they were armed, as it turns out they weren't armed, and the army shot most of them anyway.

there's a few threads on it somewhere on the site.

Bandalero · Post by **Bandalero** » 6/18/2003, 4:12 pm

what i heard was that intel said armed civilians as well as foriegners were held up there but that no such thing existed and we screwed up.

mosaik · Post by **mosaik** » 6/18/2003, 4:17 pm

hmm. before i say anything else i'll search for said intel.

i thought the army was basically not going to say anything else about it. but i am not right all the time.

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ClumsyMonkey.net

US clouds Iraqi Civillian Deaths

US clouds Iraqi Civillian Deaths