Vegetarians

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 6/15/2003, 4:42 pm

You took the words out of my mouth. I couldn't form them myself because my head is filled with Roman-this and Greek-that and how-bout-them-Byzantines? :freak:

happening fish · Post by **happening fish** » 6/15/2003, 4:45 pm

Man those Byzantines were a crazy bunch let me tell ya

sandsleeper · Post by **sandsleeper** » 6/15/2003, 5:14 pm

but see no argument can refute my reason #2. carcass just doesnt' sound that appetizing to me.

and yeah when you get right down to it you're killing tiny little bugs every time you take a step. eventually it's all unavoidable. i think the point is that you're actively trying to take part in as little of that as you can.

and yeah plants are alive, but it's been my experience that plants have no nervous system whatsoever and i personally don't consider them alive on the same level as creatures in the animal kingdom.

but when you say that it's nature i have to disagree, it isn't natural to horde creatures together, feed them chemically altered food to make them bigger and fatter, and then slaughter them en masse as soon as they're big enough, leaving most of the animal's body to waste.

i know that me abstaining from meat isn't going to stop the process or save the cows of the world and by no means is that my intention. i think for most people it has to do with morals, personal beliefs, and conscience.

Joey · Post by **Joey** » 6/15/2003, 5:16 pm

Don’t vegetarians have difficulty getting enough protein?

In the West, our problem is that we get too much protein, not too little. Most Americans get about seven times as much protein as they need. You can get enough protein from whole wheat bread, oatmeal, beans, corn, peas, mushrooms, or broccoli—almost every food contains protein. Junk food aside, it’s almost impossible for vegans to eat as many calories as we need for good health without getting enough protein.

By contrast, too much protein is the major cause of osteoporosis and contributes to kidney failure and other diseases of affluence.

Joey · Post by **Joey** » 6/15/2003, 5:20 pm

And the plant theory: What about plants?

There is currently no reason to believe that plants experience pain, devoid as they are of central nervous systems, nerve endings, and brains. It is theorized that the main reason animals have the ability to experience pain is that it serves as a form of self-protection. If you touch something that hurts and could possibly injure you, you will learn from the pain it produces to leave it alone in the future. Since plants cannot locomote and do not have the need to learn to avoid certain things, this sensation would be superfluous. If one is concerned about the impact of vegetable agriculture on the environment, a vegetarian diet is still preferable to a meat-based one, since the vast majority of grains and legumes raised today are used as feed for cattle. By eating vegetables directly, rather than eating animals such as cows, who must consume 16 pounds of vegetation in order to convert them into 1 pound of flesh, one is saving many more plants' lives (and destroying less land).

happening fish · Post by **happening fish** » 6/15/2003, 5:22 pm

sandsleeper wrote:but see no argument can refute my reason #2. carcass just doesnt' sound that appetizing to me.

That's just a matter of personal taste

sandsleeper wrote: and yeah plants are alive, but it's been my experience that plants have no nervous system whatsoever and i personally don't consider them alive on the same level as creatures in the animal kingdom.

I didn't mean you were killing plants, I meant you were killing the animals that live in the crop fields when the crops are harvested, via the blades of the harvesting machinery, and also when you are clearing land to PLANT said crops. My point was that lots of animals are going to die any way you plan your diet.

sandsleeper wrote:but when you say that it's nature i have to disagree, it isn't natural to horde creatures together, feed them chemically altered food to make them bigger and fatter, and then slaughter them en masse as soon as they're big enough, leaving most of the animal's body to waste.

No dear, I said murder was nature. Everything must kill to live. By your logic, would raising a couple chickens in a nice environment in you backyard and then killing them humanely when they were reaching age of death anyway and eating them be permissible to a vegetarian?

Joey · Post by **Joey** » 6/15/2003, 5:24 pm

Research into HOW these animals are being killed .. watch a video of an actual slaughter .. then bite down into a hamburger. To me it's disgusting .. personal opinion of course but I can't eat something that was tortured, burned, etc just so I can have a tasty meal. It all comes down to your own personal morals ..

An accidental death of a mouse or a rat by a field plow, as opposed to purposely abusing, torturing and slaughtering a larger animal. Big difference ..

superboots · Post by **superboots** » 6/15/2003, 5:29 pm

kimmy
i am getting sick of eating pasta every day (who would've known?) and i want to buy some tofu, but i don't know how to cook it, so i need some instructions :mrgreen:

starseed_10 · Post by **starseed_10** » 6/15/2003, 6:02 pm

the way i see it, there's no way that one person not eating meat will save any animals. regardless of whether you partake, the same number of animals will be killed. If anything, it will cause more meat to be wasted; one more steak in the grocery store will pass its expiry date because someone isnt eating it.
For us to kill an animal, it should be for a necessary cause. to get proper food/nourishment passes in my oppinion as long as we dont overdue it, and try not to waste too much.

not that i'm against vegetarianism... if i could save animals by restraining from meat i'd probly be a veggie any day. But for the most part, to help the cause it probably takes a lot more than that.

Joey · Post by **Joey** » 6/15/2003, 6:05 pm

It's not about necessarily 'saving animals' .. it's about personal taste and personal morals .. not everyone feels comfortable with eating something that was abused and slaughtered and tortured. That's how I see it anyway .. it's disgusting to me.

sandsleeper · Post by **sandsleeper** » 6/15/2003, 6:20 pm

OLPMazurite wrote:kimmy
i am getting sick of eating pasta every day (who would've known?) and i want to buy some tofu, but i don't know how to cook it, so i need some instructions

haha yes i shall gather some of my fav recipies and send em your way.

and yeah i wasn't necessarily giving a direct rebuttal to what you said alex, hehe i know you weren't saying that plants were alive and stuff.

but morally i would have less objections if we took more of an individualistic approach to the whole deal. ideally, i'd say it's ok when we humans go out there with a spear and a bow and arrow and risk our own lives if indeed we really must take the life of another. but i know that human's have been herding and raising animals since ancient times, so i wouldn't expect the human race to do something they would consider a regression. but yeah if the slaughtering was done on smaller farms, where animals got to graze in nice areas, had some sort of quality to whatever lives they had, and weren't picked off quite so routinely i would have less of a moral objection.

Johnny · Post by **Johnny** » 6/15/2003, 6:34 pm

I am the complete opposite of vegetarian.

I don't eat vegetables. Yuck!! :neutral:

Sufjan Stevens · Post by **Sufjan Stevens** » 6/15/2003, 8:15 pm

I am not a vegetarian, but I understand why they are vegetarians or vegans. The animals that we eat or get milk and eggs from are horribly mistreated. It's that simple. Imagine living your life as a chicken, having your beak ripped off and forced to lay eggs until you die. It is rather cruel. But then again, the animals will die anyway, just that instead of being eaten, they will rot where they fall, and that isn't too pleasant either. In other words, I am on the fence.

Joey · Post by **Joey** » 6/15/2003, 9:22 pm

I used to be a fence sitter too until I started really researching it .. then after seeing video footage on a benefit cd I bought and pictures I managed to traumatize myself pretty good. If it was done in a more humane way, it wouldn't be as devastating .. of course I probably saw some of the worst footage out there with the point of waking more people up. I mean it doesn't seem bad to eat eggs .. you'd think the chickens could run around free and just lay eggs, but noooo, it doesn't work that way.

"The cruelty of egg production lies in the treatment of the "laying" hens themselves, who are perhaps the most abused of all factory-farmed animals. Up to five hens are packed into each cage the size of a filing cabinet drawer. The cages are stacked many tiers high; feces from the cages above fall onto the chickens below. Hens become lame and develop osteoporosis from forced immobility and calcium lost to produce egg shells. Some birds’ feet grow around the wire cage floors; they starve to death because they are unable to reach the food trough. At just 2 years of age, most hens are "spent" and sent to the slaughterhouse. Egg-laying hatcheries have no use for male chicks so they suffocate, decapitate, crush, or grind them up alive.

Each egg from today’s egg factory farms represents 22 hours of hell for a hen."

sandsleeper · Post by **sandsleeper** » 6/15/2003, 9:29 pm

you know, i believe there are some places called "free range" hen houses or something where the hens are not kept in such cages and have a slightly better life. not sure which egg companies do this though, it would be a good thing to look into...

sandsleeper · Post by **sandsleeper** » 6/15/2003, 9:34 pm

hmm.. never mind, i just did some reading about free-range hens and that doesn't look so hot either...

hmm... maybe i should look into getting some pet chickens...

Joey · Post by **Joey** » 6/15/2003, 9:40 pm

I'm probably getting annoying with all my quotes and stuff but yeah, been doing a lot of research.

"Consumers believe "free-range" hens and cows live happily and peacefully until they are slaughtered. But no laws or standards regulate the use of terms like "free-range" and "free-roaming." In fact, common cruel industry practices used in factory farms, such as debeaking, forced molting, and literally throwing away male chicks at birth, also take place at many "free-range" farms. Of course all the animals are slaughtered whenever it is deemed most profitable. According to The Washington Post Magazine, the term "free-range," especially in the case of birds, "doesn’t really tell you anything about the [animal’s] quality of life, nor does it even assure that the animal actually goes outdoors." From the "free-range" hen who smells fresh air for the first time on the way to the slaughterhouse to the "humanely raised" dairy cow whose male baby is taken away from her at birth and sold to veal farmers, all animals raised for food suffer and are exploited. Even small, family-run dairy farms often have no choice but to send their older cows to slaughter and their newborn males to veal farms."

starseed_10 · Post by **starseed_10** » 6/15/2003, 9:43 pm

how is it doing any justice though by not eating these animals? Just because of some corporate bastards, why deny yourself the gift of being able to eat meat?

sandsleeper · Post by **sandsleeper** » 6/15/2003, 9:55 pm

the point is not that you're doing justice.

if you feel comfortable eating meat whilst knowing all this then fine.

however some people do feel uncomfortable about it, and have different degrees of this uncomfortableness, so they choose to avoid eating these products.

Joey · Post by **Joey** » 6/15/2003, 9:57 pm

heh .. eating meat is definitely not something that I would call a "gift" either ..

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Vegetarians