challenge to pro-war/pro-state people

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starvingeyes
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challenge to pro-war/pro-state people

Post by starvingeyes »

on march 16, 2003, the israeli government murdered 23 year old american peace activist rachel corrie.

<img src ="http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/rach1.jpg">
as you can see here, there can really be no question about whether or not the operator of the bulldozer could see rachel. she is wearing a bright coloured jacket and shouting through a megaphone. this was an intentional act.

rachel was severely injured by the attack and died within minutes of massive internal injuries.

rachel was trying to prevent the destruction of a civillian home by an IDF bulldozer when this happened. destruction of civillian property by an occupying power is a war crime as defined under convention IV, article 53 of the geneva convention. the text is as follows:

the geneva convention wrote:Art. 53. Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities, or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations


[ <a href ="http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e636b/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5?OpenDocument" class ="postlink" target ="new">source</a> ]

as you can see in the posts below, this is only one of the massive atrocities that the israeli government commits against civillians on a daily basis, but this one is special because on march 19, 2003, the us government pledged 10 billion dollars to israel in foreign aid, including 1 billion for military aid, the same military that killed rachel corrie. [ <a href ="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/274731.html" class ="postlink" target ="new">source</a> ]

this money comes from us tax dollars, which comes from us tax payers. rachel corrie's families and friends are us tax payers. your government is forcing, under pain of death, the corrie family to pay the killers of their daughter.

there has been a united nations resolution, resolution 242 in place since 1967 that calls for, in no uncertain terms the "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict" [ <a href ="http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/b86613e7d92097880525672e007227a7/59210ce6d04aef61852560c3005da209!OpenDocument" class ="postlink" target ="new">source</a> ].

so.

you claim that your war in iraq is to:

a. liberate the iraqui people from a brutal despot
b. punish saddam hussein for his war crimes
c. enforce united nations resolution 1441

when you support ariel sharon who

a. is a brutal despot opressing innocent people.
b. a war criminal
c. in violation of a united nations resolution.

furthermore, you gave iraq a matter of months to comply with the un resolution in question, whereas you have given israel over 30 years.

justify this. defend your great and mighty government. defend your blantant and bold hypocricy. justify forcing rachel corries parents to send money to the same people who brutally killed their daughter. i'd like to hear your opinions on this.

i'd like somebody to prove to me that george w. bush actually gives a shit about the people of the world, that the american people actually give a shit about the people of the world. i'd like you to prove to me that you don't only go to war with brutal, evil nations when it suits your best interests. i'd like you to tell me how you justify your support of a government that aids this kind of savagery.

tell me.
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happening fish
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Post by happening fish »

I still don't understand what happened with that. Why didn't she move out of the way when she was clearly about to be run over?
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starvingeyes
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Post by starvingeyes »

they had been obstructing bulldozers all day, and so far had proved successful.

as the bulldozers would approach, they would pull up the dirt underneath the feet of the protestors to try and knock them off balance or push them backwards. rachel climbed up on this mound and became trapped under it as the bulldozer continued to press forward. previously, the dozers had stopped but i guess this time the idf decided to send a message to the pesky protestors who were trying to do something the mighty american government does not have the balls to do.

by the time rachel realized that the bulldozer was not going to stop it was too late, and she was killed.
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Corey
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Post by Corey »

bomb israel.
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starvingeyes
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Post by starvingeyes »

fair enough.
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Bandalero
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Re: challenge to pro-war/pro-state people

Post by Bandalero »

chrisaddam hussein wrote:
the geneva convention wrote:Art. 53. Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities, or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations


as you can see in the posts below, this is only one of the massive atrocities that the israeli government commits against civillians on a daily basis, but this one is special because on march 19, 2003, the us government pledged 10 billion dollars to israel in foreign aid, including 1 billion for military aid, the same military that killed rachel corrie. [ <a href ="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/274731.html" class ="postlink" target ="new">source</a> ]

this money comes from us tax dollars, which comes from us tax payers. rachel corrie's families and friends are us tax payers. your government is forcing, under pain of death, the corrie family to pay the killers of their daughter.

there has been a united nations resolution, resolution 242 in place since 1967 that calls for, in no uncertain terms the "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict" [ <a href ="http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/b86613e7d92097880525672e007227a7/59210ce6d04aef61852560c3005da209!OpenDocument" class ="postlink" target ="new">source</a> ].

so.

you claim that your war in iraq is to:

a. liberate the iraqui people from a brutal despot
b. punish saddam hussein for his war crimes
c. enforce united nations resolution 1441

when you support ariel sharon who

a. is a brutal despot opressing innocent people.
b. a war criminal
c. in violation of a united nations resolution.

furthermore, you gave iraq a matter of months to comply with the un resolution in question, whereas you have given israel over 30 years.

justify this. defend your great and mighty government. defend your blantant and bold hypocricy. justify forcing rachel corries parents to send money to the same people who brutally killed their daughter. i'd like to hear your opinions on this.

i'd like somebody to prove to me that george w. bush actually gives a shit about the people of the world, that the american people actually give a shit about the people of the world. i'd like you to prove to me that you don't only go to war with brutal, evil nations when it suits your best interests. i'd like you to tell me how you justify your support of a government that aids this kind of savagery.

tell me.


ok, first prove that this is not an accident, shifting dirt underneath a person is something i don't have knowlege in. do you?

as for the money, show me an audit. i want to see paper work that reserves US money to this bulldozing project and not for thier ARROW anti-missile projects.

ok, there are codes and laws that say what you claim to say, keep digging around, there COULD be other laws and codes that may have countered this law and made it null and void. your looking for laws 1967 up until recently.
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if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear
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Nobody's gonna miss me, no tears will fall, no ones gonna weap, when i hit that road.
my boots are broken my brain is sore, fer keepin' up with thier little world, i got a heavy load.
gonna leave 'em all just like before, i'm big city bound, your always 17 in your hometown
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starvingeyes
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Post by starvingeyes »

it wasn't an accident. she was clearly visibile to the driver as shown in the photos. need more evidence? i've got plenty:

<img src ="http://electronicintifada.net/artman/uploads/largerachfront.jpg">

right before getting hit. no question that she was visible.

here are 4 eye witness accounts of the incident
http://www.electronicintifada.net/v2/article1263.shtml

no accident. murder.

the bulldozers are owned and operated by the IDF. the americans are sending money to the IDF. while it's impossible for me to prove to you that american money was used to buy these particular bulldozers, i don't see how that's important. the americans are sending 1 billion dollars to the same people who just brutally killed one of their own.

that quote is from the full text of the current geneva convention. 2 protocols have been added to the text since it's inception, but none of hte original text has been modified. it is a war crime to destroy private property. period.

the full text of the un security council resolution 242 is available on the link i provided. it's very short. read it yourself and then decided if it seems like that resolution was meant to expire.
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Post by Bandalero »

chrisaddam hussein wrote:as the bulldozers would approach, they would pull up the dirt underneath the feet of the protestors to try and knock them off balance or push them backwards. rachel climbed up on this mound and became trapped under it as the bulldozer continued to press forward.


so if the intention of the driver of this bulldozer is to knock them off balance or out of the way, then his intention was not to kill this protester. he can see her, that's a given, but if she was trapped, porve to me that she was trapped intentionally by the driver. like i said before shifting dirt underneath a person is pretty iffy, i can imiagine that the dirt would have been a reason she was caught under it.
Whenever death may surprise us,
let it be welcome
if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear
and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.


Nobody's gonna miss me, no tears will fall, no ones gonna weap, when i hit that road.
my boots are broken my brain is sore, fer keepin' up with thier little world, i got a heavy load.
gonna leave 'em all just like before, i'm big city bound, your always 17 in your hometown
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Post by mosaik »

who cares if she was trapped intentionally... that's not what killed her.

it was the bulldozer running over and then reversing over her body that killed her. the bulldozer driver saw her fall and become pinned beneath the churning dirt and yet he proceeded.

it was murder. in cold blood.
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starvingeyes
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Post by starvingeyes »

when you see that you have trapped a human being amidst a pile of dirt in front of your advancing bulldozer, what do you do?

stop the bulldozer. you cannot "accidently" run over and then reverse over somebody you did not see. the driver did not stop bulldozing the home or even get out after killing rachel. he killed her, backed over her, and went on with his illegal business.
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Post by Dr. Hobo »

The tank came over to where she was briefly and then retreated to the border fence with the two bulldozers. At no point did any member of the Israeli forces enquire as to Rachel's well-being or offer any assistance.


if it was accidental.. dont you think they wouldve done or said anything?!
if im doing something and i accidentally hit someone while doing it.. im gonna stop and say sorry and make sure the person is okay b4 continiuing with my actions.. thats normal human behaviour.. the driver didnt show any remorse over what he did..
thats not accidental
go fuck yourself.
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starvingeyes
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Post by starvingeyes »

it gets worse

<a href ="http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,917178,00.html" target ="new" class ="postlink">IDF fires on funeral for slain american protestor</a>

<a href ="http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=22&art_id=vn20030318110429520C458242&set_id=1" target ="new" class ="postlink">israel holds us woman's body</a>
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Venom
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Post by Venom »

Funny how you leave out all the damage and destruction that the Palestinians have done. If the US fully supported Israel they would 1. not demand a Palestinian state as George Bush did last week 2. They would allow Israel to get involved in the current Iraq conflict. 3. they would stage attacks from Isreal as it is a very good strategic location. You act like Israel is fully to blame for whats going on there. Read some history my friend. The Palestinians don't want a state next to the Jews they want them all dead. Its just that they don't have the weapons and technology to do it effectively. If you actually think the Palestinians have done nothing to provoke any of this you're a fucking idiot.
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happening fish
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Post by happening fish »

hmm all this "accidental" running over and over reminds me of Clara Harris :freak:
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Venom
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Post by Venom »

Its terrible what happened to this girl, but she shouldn't have been there in the first place!! It doesn't take much common sense to not stand in front of a huge bulldozer where the driver can't see anything less than 10 feet in front of its large blade.
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starvingeyes
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Post by starvingeyes »

i'm sure rachel would've liked to get out of the way but by then she was burried to her waist in sand.

and whether or not there are palestinian terrorists who do very much deserve what they get is not the issue. the issue is that rachel corrie, and the doctor she was protecting, are not terrorists. they do not deserve this.

both IDF forces and hamas terrorists target innocent people. both are evil.
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Venom
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Post by Venom »

i'm sure rachel would've liked to get out of the way but by then she was burried to her waist in sand.


SHE SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!
If you don't wanna become the victim of a bulldozing ACCIDENT don't stand in front of one. DUH!
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Post by Dr. Hobo »

Venom wrote:SHE SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!

she was just voicing her opinion on something.. nothing wrong with that.

Venom wrote:If you don't wanna become the victim of a bulldozing ACCIDENT don't stand in front of one. DUH!


if you are driving your car.. and you hit accidentily bump someone.. do you drive back over the person and sit there?
do you just leave the person alone?
at the very least.. you see if the person is okay do you not?!

if it was an ACCIDENT then you dont leave the scene and not offer to HELP the person who MAY still be ALIVE
i refuse to accept that you would just LEAVE the scene and pretend NOTHING happened after you ACCIDENTILY did something
go fuck yourself.
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Bandalero
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Post by Bandalero »

chrisaddam hussein wrote:when you see that you have trapped a human being amidst a pile of dirt in front of your advancing bulldozer, what do you do?

stop the bulldozer. you cannot "accidently" run over and then reverse over somebody you did not see. the driver did not stop bulldozing the home or even get out after killing rachel. he killed her, backed over her, and went on with his illegal business.


after looking at the picture again i see this thing isn't just a regular bulldozer...jesus man that thing looks alot more massive. what makes you think that they can just stop that thing on a dime? like a speeding car or train on a track, you have to give reaction time and distance for this thing to stop. now, i'm almost positive that a driver of this dozer cannot see directly in front of the loader in front of it, how did he know exacly that he hit her? he could have reversed the thing to see if he did or not and ultimately ran her over again. people leave the scene of accidents all the time, maybe the guy's nerves got to him and he paniced and left the scene....in a dozer, hey wierder things have happened. :freak:

either way the driver is still responsible, and the UN needs to look into this kind of behavior.
Whenever death may surprise us,
let it be welcome
if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear
and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.


Nobody's gonna miss me, no tears will fall, no ones gonna weap, when i hit that road.
my boots are broken my brain is sore, fer keepin' up with thier little world, i got a heavy load.
gonna leave 'em all just like before, i'm big city bound, your always 17 in your hometown
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Post by Corey »

The guy was just doing his job. How would you feel about someone screaming at you with a megaphone while you were at work?
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