31 Reasons you vote

[mosaik]

Rob is my personal hero.

http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/m/m10.html

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Don’t blame me, I didn’t vote. ~ Jeremy Sapienza

My barber believes passionately that everyone should vote, and since one of my primary objectives is to persuade people to abstain from politics, I often raise the subject with her during election season. Although our conversations remain cordial, usually they are short and intense (at least her part). Last week she asked me, “Why would you not vote? I think that’s the most dishonorable and un-American thing you could do.” But it seems to me that it is the voter who must justify his actions, since voting is an affirmative act. Since most voters have never really considered why they vote, I have decided to assist them by providing a list of reasons to vote:

1. 1. You believe that a majority of voters has the right to impose their will on everyone else through the use of force.

2. You want to steal from other people and/or force them to do certain things, but you’d rather have someone else point the gun for you.

3. You believe that the State is legitimate, and want to provide legitimacy to it for the next two to six years.

4. You believe that democracy is a legitimate decision-making process, and don’t mind being bound by the results.

5. You believe that voting will protect you from government or slow the growth of the State.

6. You want to live in a political society instead of a civil society.

7. You prefer to wield political power because you’re too lazy to work for social power.

8. You want the politicians to have a mandate and to be able to say, “The people have spoken!”

9. You don’t mind if the government helps you decide by narrowing your choices for you.

10. You’re a follower who needs to be led, and believe that everyone else needs “leaders” who are selected by a majority of the voters.

11. You believe that millions of people gave their lives to defend your right to vote.

12. You want to honor the victims of 9/11, who were killed because some foreigners didn’t like the fact that we live in a democracy.

13. You believe that voting is the way to make your voice heard, and that politicians hear your voice when you vote.

14. You believe that if your candidate wins, you will get what you want, just like you want it.

15. You like the way that politicians have been running things, and want to send them back for more.

16. You believe that politicians will keep their campaign promises.

17. You don’t believe that power will corrupt politicians once they’re in office.

18. You trust the politicians you vote for, and believe they care about you.

19. Your government school taught you that voting is a privilege.

20. You like to exercise your freedom—to choose your master.

21. You believe that your vote will affect the outcome of an election.

22. You believe that voting fraud won’t affect the outcome of an election.

23. You believe that the new touch-screen voting machines are reliable, tamper-proof, and leave an adequate paper trail in case the results are contested.

24. You’re proud to wear the “I voted” sticker that they give you after you vote.

25. George W. Bush said that it’s your duty to vote.

26. The president's wife or mother called you and asked you to vote.

27. You get a rush out of wielding political power.

28. You think that a politician is cute, or you like the way he kisses his wife, or you like the earth tones he wears, etc.

29. You saw a campaign sign that made you feel patriotic because of its flag motif, or that made you feel good because it had a catchy slogan on it, such as "the courage to lead" or "neighborhoods first."

30. The political ads on TV and radio that cater to the lowest common denominator don't insult your intelligence.

31. You don’t mind your name and other personal information being on a government list, which will come in handy if the government wants to summon you for jury duty, draft you into the military, audit your income tax returns, collect information about you, or send you to an internment camp.

[Bandalero]

1.You believe that a majority of voters has the right to impose their will on everyone else through the use of force.

not true considering that the minority can put up a law or bill that benifits itself and for the sake of helping someone in need the majority will vote for it because it will help the minority and not affect the majority.

2. You want to steal from other people and/or force them to do certain things, but you’d rather have someone else point the gun for you.

no the government belongs to the people and it's laws are public property, there for everyone is "pointing a gun"

3.You believe that the State is legitimate, and want to provide legitimacy to it for the next two to six years.

no we believe that the representative is leguit and we want him to work for us during his term.

4.You believe that democracy is a legitimate decision-making process, and don’t mind being bound by the results.

democracy is mob-rule. we use a democratic republic. big difference.

5.You believe that voting will protect you from government or slow the growth of the State.

no, we believe that if you vote you can prevent something that will affect you badly and replace it with something that will not. it's all about ME!

6.You want to live in a political society instead of a civil society.

no US people are civil, especially about politics. look toward other countries that forcably deny people to vote, or not to vote.

7.You prefer to wield political power because you’re too lazy to work for social power.

I don't see your fat ass making roads now do i?

8.You want the politicians to have a mandate and to be able to say, “The people have spoken!”

no, we want to able to speak through our representative, not have him speak for us.

9.You don’t mind if the government helps you decide by narrowing your choices for you.

if the government listened to everything that is "necessary" in its region we'd have mob-rule. remember republic, not democracy.

10. You’re a follower who needs to be led, and believe that everyone else needs “leaders” who are selected by a majority of the voters.

no we have lead because we have chosen a representative. those who choose a representative get thier voices hear, while other who do not choose are following.

11.You believe that millions of people gave their lives to defend your right to vote.

yes because you wouldn't want the queen of england pushing you around. do you want that? *push* huh? *push* do you? *push push*

12.You want to honor the victims of 9/11, who were killed because some foreigners didn’t like the fact that we live in a democracy.

we honor them because they died, everyone celebrates a funeral ceramony for their dead.

13.You believe that voting is the way to make your voice heard, and that politicians hear your voice when you vote.

again no, we speak through them. those who do not let us get removed come next election

14.You believe that if your candidate wins, you will get what you want, just like you want it.

no you get a speaker to voice through, other people have theirs, and thus debate begins. the outcome might not be what you wanted but something inbetween it's called comprimise

15.You like the way that politicians have been running things, and want to send them back for more.

if their debateing skills prove to show results, yeah sure why not.

16.You believe that politicians will keep their campaign promises.

no they will fight for them unless certain circumstances come up. even then they have the debate process that influences them too

17.You don’t believe that power will corrupt politicians once they’re in office.

oh but it does. anyone with a right head on their shoulders knows that, however you have to make it to where your representative makes deals that suit your needs.

18.You trust the politicians you vote for, and believe they care about you.

there should be care, otherwise they are gone or not elected.

19.Your government school taught you that voting is a privilege.

no george pharr taught me that. alone with everyone else that denies their people the privilege to vote.

20. You like to exercise your freedom—to choose your master.

no we choose a guy that does what we tell him to do, our very own persnonal bitch!

21. You believe that your vote will affect the outcome of an election.

of course, florida...nuf said.

22. You believe that voting fraud won’t affect the outcome of an election.

of but it does. george pharr and ballot box 13 prove that.

23. You believe that the new touch-screen voting machines are reliable, tamper-proof, and leave an adequate paper trail in case the results are contested.

i don't know i don't have those in my county. were afraid that a modern day george pharr would tamper with that as well.

24. You’re proud to wear the “I voted” sticker that they give you after you vote.

they give stickers...son of a bitch i got robbed! FUCK!

25. George W. Bush said that it’s your duty to vote.

no common sense told me that.

26. The president's wife or mother called you and asked you to vote.

no she was calling looking for my grandpa and her missing panties from that one night down here. crazy ass grandpa...

27. You get a rush out of wielding political power.

naw man i get a rush from smoking weed and sticking my head out of the sunroof while john is driving.....weah man totally trippy until a bug smacks you right inbetween the eyes.

28. You think that a politician is cute, or you like the way he kisses his wife, or you like the earth tones he wears, etc.

there hasn't been a hot ass chick running for office in my lifetime. and i don;t think that voting for someone is going to allow me free acess into their pants.

29. You saw a campaign sign that made you feel patriotic because of its flag motif, or that made you feel good because it had a catchy slogan on it, such as "the courage to lead" or "neighborhoods first."

no normal people go to debates and hear what the canidates issues are and where he stands on issues that affect me.

30. The political ads on TV and radio that cater to the lowest common denominator don't insult your intelligence.

hey man, special ed's got to vote too.

31. You don’t mind your name and other personal information being on a government list, which will come in handy if the government wants to summon you for jury duty, draft you into the military, audit your income tax returns, collect information about you, or send you to an internment camp.

you can always get out of jury duty...here is an example "oh yeah man i heard about that shit that mother fucker was my cousin...yeah man pick me i'm going to send that mother fucker straight to the chair." there is no draft and there probably will never be one again. audit away, i'm an accounting major and i'll make sure you get your shit right when you audit me i got nothing to hide anyway. besides, they're not going to pay an auditor meals, a room, travel expenses, and a paycheck to come get my 50 bucks. go ahead collect information i don;t care, there is nothing on me that you can physically pin on me. i don;t worry about camps because well, i have nothing to hide and i sympathise for no one except me myself and my loved ones...fuck off.

[mosaik]

Rob moody wrote that. he's an america, former soldier, and has been studying politiks for a few years now.... like the better part of the last decade.

he knows how your system of government works. trust me. a lot of your rebutals were picking nits or changing words to ones you liked better. that is not a critical column, it's simply a list of the 31 reasons that people vote.

[Narbus]

...it's simply a list of the 31 reasons that people vote.

No, it's a list of 31 possible reasons people may vote. There are other reasons. Just like someone may want a free market so they can control prices more ruthlessly, or someone may want to not murder so they can get into Heaven. Motives vary, and you still aren't psychic, you still don't know what everyone is thinking.

[mosaik]

oh jesus christ narbus. i think now you're just being critical for the sake of busting my balls.

fine fine fine.. it's a list of thirty one POSSIBLE reasons that people vote. most people PROBABLY vote because they believe one or more of these things.

[Bandalero]

so what? i can't write 31 reasons to give to vote based on history and personal expirience? sure the guy studies this type of thing, that doesn't mean he's right.

[mosaik]

fair enough

[Narbus]

oh jesus christ narbus. i think now you're just being critical for the sake of busting my balls.

Well, yeah. Pinata and all.

fine fine fine.. it's a list of thirty one POSSIBLE reasons that people vote. most people PROBABLY vote because they believe one or more of these things.

See, here's the thing. Given your stated stance on voting (immoral, coercive, etc etc etc) You started this thread, no doubt, to try and convince us all that voting is a foolish, or even harmful, thing to do. To accomplish this end, you tried to paint a picture of voting as evil, by analyzing the motives of those who vote.
Since you are a "rational" person, I'm going to ask how only posting information that supports your side is an effective way to form opinions. After all, in university thesis...es, theses? Thesii? Whatever. In college level pain-in-the-ass-papers, it's often required that some part of your paper be dedicated to the argument opposing yours. You must consider the other side.
But all I've ever seen you post is "the US sucks," "objectivism is right," and so on. Even in another thread where I actually took your side and stated that I felt going to war was wrong, you still went in and held firm, taking apart all other arguments and refusing to consider others.

PS: In most of these threads, I've just been responding to you. So that's why the lack of other side arguments on my part. You have been the initator of a great many of these "discusssions," so you're the one mostly in charge, you get to flip it around, not me. But anyway, I did actually agree with you on several points, so.

Wow. That rambled. Anyway, my point, kinda: You tried to paint voting as evil, by posting some rather slanted reasons why people vote. Your terminology (these are the reasons why people vote...) led me to think that you feel these are the only reasons. Since there is a "preview" button, and I do believe in the idea of Freudian slips, well, I really do believe you to think there is no "good" reason to vote. Hence my reply.

[mosaik]

the article is an analysis of the voters thought process - not a critique of it.

you're reading too much into it. what i had hoped to accomplish by posting is was get people to go "yeah, i voted because of #4, 17 and 25.." and we could discuss why they believed 4, 17, and 25.

this was not a critical post. this post IS all about considering the other side... it's Rob sitting down and thinking "if i voted, what would be my reasons"

i love how you try to turn the word rational into a word that means 'to consider and yield in discussions even when the other side is wrong"

rational is a totally different thing all together that doesn't involve compromising your principles to appease your opposition.

[thirdhour]

One of the only ones i have a problem with:
:quote:
7. You prefer to wield political power because you’re too lazy to work for social power.

work=social power, is not nessicarily the truth. yes, true it can happen, but a lot of the time it doesn't. people can spent their whole lives working their asses off and get nowhere while some rich bastard sits on his ass all his life and end up with a ton of 'social power'.

[Narbus]

the article is an analysis of the voters thought process - not a critique of it.

Um. Did you read the article?
1. You believe that a majority of voters has the right to impose their will on everyone else through the use of force.
7. You prefer to wield political power because you’re too lazy to work for social power.
9. You don’t mind if the government helps you decide by narrowing your choices for you.

and so on. That's rather harsh language, and reeks of "nasty critique" to me, since it is, essentially calling all voters sheep.

you're reading too much into it. what i had hoped to accomplish by posting is was get people to go "yeah, i voted because of #4, 17 and 25.." and we could discuss why they believed 4, 17, and 25.

Ok, given your history of topics, I don't really think I read to much into it. You hate voting, you post a lot of negative reasons people vote, you generally refuse to acknowledge that anything you don't believe in can still be right...

this was not a critical post. this post IS all about considering the other side... it's Rob sitting down and thinking "if i voted, what would be my reasons"

Again, read the article. It's far too negative a view to not have some underlying purpose to it.

i love how you try to turn the word rational into a word that means 'to consider and yield in discussions even when the other side is wrong"

rational is a totally different thing all together that doesn't involve compromising your principles to appease your opposition.

No, I said it's not rational to refuse to consider that your own opinions may be wrong. The only way, rationally, that I can see someone holding that belief is if they consider themselves perfect, which really isn't a rational state of mind.

[mosaik]

i believe that i can be wrong about things. i could be wrong about the colour of your hair, whether or not your car is a honda or a toyota. i could be wrong about what kind of computer is best or the weather tomorrow.

what i'm not wrong about is what rational thought is. i don't try to think in a rational state, i just do. it's just who i am. i also believe, as is my inalienable human right, that rational thinking is right thinking. i will consider your opinion on which car is fastest, or which basketball team is best. i could be wrong about either of those topics. but i will never believe that irrational thought is right thought, because i believe that man is by nature rational.

therefore, to think irrationally would be to act outside of human nature. that's why i won't consider an irrational opinion.

/rant

[Narbus]

...because i believe that man is by nature rational...

And you'd be wrong. So your entire point is gone.


So.

[mosaik]

you're going to have to prove that.....

[Corey]

you're going to have to prove that.....

Should we count the number of individuals that you called "irrational"?

[Corey]

i will consider your opinion on which car is fastest, or which basketball team is best. i could be wrong about either of those topics.

What does an opinion have to do with it? There can only be ONE car that is the FASTEST. There can only be ONE team that is the BEST. Now you are being irrational, right?

[mosaik]

people can make irrational choices. that doesn't change the rational nature of man. left on his own with no interfering factors, a man will always make the rational choice.

The Lakers beat the Sacremento Kings last year in a best of seven series that left many people feeling disappointed. Sacremento played far better in the first five games of the series then the last two when their whole team disappeared. add that to the sudden re-emergence of Shaq and some questionable officiating and the Lake show was able to waltz to it's third straight title.

I think that the issue of which of those two teams is better is still very open to debate.

[Narbus]

you're going to have to prove that.....

Well, since you asked.

In the 1960's, Stanley Milgram set up a now famous experiment. The subjects were told they were helping with a study on how punishment affects learning. They were taken into a room, where they were connected via speaker to a "student" in another room (the subject couldn't see the student). Whenever the student made an error in reciting a list of word pairs he was supposed to have memorized, the subject had to give the student an electric shock but pushing a lever. With each error, the voltage was increased, from "slight shock" to "DANGER--SEVERE SHOCK" and finally "XXX." The reality of the situation was the "student" was in on the study, and didn't receive any shocks, but none of the subjects realized this during the study.
Before doing this, the psycharists involved predicted no one would go beyond the 150 Volt level, and only 1 in 1000 people would administer the highest voltage.
However: All people administered some amount of shock, and over 2/3's of the subjects administered the highest level of shock, no matter how much the "victim" screamed, and no matter how anguished the subject seemed to be about the pain they were causing, they continued to hit the button.
This study has been replicated with identical results at several American universities, and around the world, with men, women, young, or old. Some studies in other countries reported as high a rate as 90% of people administering the highest shock possible.
Rational?

Solomon Asch set up an experiment where he planted seven students in a classroom, and drew several lines on the chalkboard, then asked the class which was the longest. Should be easy to pick, right? When the planted students picked the shortest line as the longest, the next student in line, not a plant, not aware of what was going on, picked the shortest line, also.
Only 20% of the students involved actually remained independent on each trial, and even then, they reported feeling "disturbed, puzzled, separated, like an outcast from the rest."
Again, an experiment that has been replicated many times over the years, in the US and other countries.
Rational?

left on his own with no interfering factors, a man will always make the rational choice.

There will always be interferring factors, of some kind, whether it be a social norm, or a bias from childhood, or a man in a lab coat staring at you. We are not free of our pasts, they shape us and they way we think and act, and given that memory is more reconstructive than recollective (when you remember an event, you don't have a picture image of it in your head. You put together what happened, and this reconstruction can be influenced greatly by your personal biases, especially those biases you aren't aware you possess) we shape our pasts, too. So it's a cycle, and one that is inherent to the way our minds work.


A word as small and unnoticable as "the" can alter how you think. In a study, people were shown a video of a car, and then asked either "did you see a broken headlight," or "did you see the broken headlight." As you might guess, those people who were asked the second question were more likely to say "yes" than those asked the first question. Very subtle. Very rational?

In another study, students were shown the face of a man with straight hair, then heard a description of the face supposedly written by another witness -- a description that wrongly said the man had curly hair. When the students reconstructed the face, 1/3 of the reconstructions contained the curly hair, compared to only 1/20 when the curly hair was not mentioned.
Rational?

The way our brains work, and the way we think are simply not built to make us rational. We may, occasionally, think in rational ways, yes. But that does not make us rational.

Humanity isn't rational.

[mosaik]

let me start by saying i'd like to see the results of these experiments. i know you're coming across as real credible right now, but i'd actually like to see the study before i believe it.

Milgram was studying the level of obedience in men, not attempting to determine if they were capable of rational thought or not. and none of your studies disprove that assertion, by the way.

All men have the capacity for rational thought. Some choose not to use it. You shut if off everytime you make your way to the ballot box and everytime you shove a dollar into the tax man's pocket. However as you do this, you must in some capacity recognize that there is a rational alternative to the action you are taking. You just choose to ignore it.

Proof:

Perrin and Spencer (1980, 1981) suggested that the Asch effect was a "child of its time". They carried out an exact replication of the original Asch experiment using engineering, mathematics and chemistry students as subjects. The results were clear cut: on only one out of 396 trials did an observer join the erroneous majority.

Chemistry, mathematics and Engineering are all studies with emphasis on rational thought. These people are rational thinkers with strong self-confidence - they don't follow the majority, they listen to their own consience. Observe the results of the Asch experiment when it was attempted on superior minds.

Humanity may not act rational all the time, but all men have that capacity. It's what sets us aside and apart from the lesser beasts.

[Narbus]

let me start by saying i'd like to see the results of these experiments. i know you're coming across as real credible right now, but i'd actually like to see the study before i believe it.

The initial study was:
Milgram, Stanely (1963), Behavioral study of obedience. Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, 73, 1092-1106.
A book:
Milgram Stanely (1974), Obedience to authority: An experimental view. New York: Harper & Row.

Other studies:
Meeus, Wim H. J., & Raaijmakers, Quinten A. W. (1995). Obedience in modern society: The Utrecht studies. Journal of Social Issues, 51, 155-175.
Smith, Peter B., & Bond, Michael H. (1994). Social psychology across cultures: Analysis and perspectives. Boston: Allyn & Bacon.

For something more convienient, click here.

Milgram was studying the level of obedience in men, not attempting to determine if they were capable of rational thought or not. and none of your studies disprove that assertion, by the way.

Actually, the point was that people were totally willing to kill another, completely innocent, human being simply because a man with a lab coat was in the room. That's not rational.

All men have the capacity for rational thought. Some choose not to use it. You shut if off everytime you make your way to the ballot box and everytime you shove a dollar into the tax man's pocket. However as you do this, you must in some capacity recognize that there is a rational alternative to the action you are taking. You just choose to ignore it.

Actually, no. I don't think "there must be another way to do this" when I buy something (sales tax). I understand that as a society, there are certain things that I like, such as police and roads, and that to get these things, money must be spent. I also understand that state grants help keep my tuition low as I attend college, and that federal money is helping me pay that tuition off, so when I pay taxes, I see it as not a bad thing.

Proof:

Perrin and Spencer (1980, 1981) suggested that the Asch effect was a "child of its time". They carried out an exact replication of the original Asch experiment using engineering, mathematics and chemistry students as subjects. The results were clear cut: on only one out of 396 trials did an observer join the erroneous majority.

You may want to post the rest of that page. There's for and against this so-called "Asch effect." I will, however, give you points for pointing out the ambiguity, and I'll be ignoring the Asch experiment from now on.

Chemistry, mathematics and Engineering are all studies with emphasis on rational thought. These people are rational thinkers with strong self-confidence - they don't follow the majority, they listen to their own consience. Observe the results of the Asch experiment when it was attempted on superior minds.

I am an engineering student. Rational? Occasionally. Perhaps more than the general populace (well, definately more, but whatever), but still not perfectly rational people. Who else would spend 3 days playing in the registry of their computer and reformatting twice so that Battlefield 1942 plays better? Who else would build something like this? Are either of those rational? Not really. Are they entertaining as all hell? YES.

Humanity may not act rational all the time, but all men have that capacity. It's what sets us aside and apart from the lesser beasts.

Okay, well we all have the capacity to learn to fly a plane, that doesn't make us pilots. Just because we can be something, that very rarely means we are. We can be rational, but we aren't rational beings.