individualism vs collectivism dialouge.

[starvingeyes]

Dialogue With Diablo
Alexander Temal


The following discussion took place on February 7, 2003. It has been edited for content and clarity, and to include a few comments.

Exitil: what are your principles?
Exitil: what makes things right and wrong, in your view?
Exitil: and why
Diablo7016: haha
Diablo7016: now that's a complicated questioin
Diablo7016: it's too broad
Diablo7016: give me an issue
Exitil: well, your position on each issue has to come from something
Exitil: what standard do you use to judge
Diablo7016: my standard is : does it hurt other individuals
Diablo7016: i believe in complete absolute freedom in what we do so long as we harm no other being
Diablo7016: a good example is legalizing drugs because if i harm no one but myself then it's no one's business
Diablo7016: that's where i agree with libertarians
Diablo7016: but when it comes to capitalism the natural urge is to exploit
Diablo7016: the powerful tend to hurt the ones not in power
Exitil: well, what does it mean to exploit?
Diablo7016: deny invididuals equal fruits in their labor
Diablo7016: labor is as important as the guy on the top
Diablo7016: not that i think everyone should be payed the same

[Shouldn't it be THE fruits of their labor? First he suggests they should have equal fruits, then says they shouldn't be paid the same? Maybe he means be given fruits equal to the labor they put in. But then we have to ask how he determines that if not based on the contract.]

Diablo7016: but people need better living wages
Diablo7016: health care
Diablo7016: education
Diablo7016: which we could afford 1,000 times over with the military budget we have
Diablo7016: so i hate hearing "we have no money for that" we have billions and billions

[Ignoring for the moment whether their need for anything translates into deserving anything, and that the military budget too is from looted money.]

Exitil: well how do you determine what someone's share of the profits should be?
Exitil: some people surely put in more than others
Diablo7016: sure and they get more
Exitil: so what are you against in capitalism?
Diablo7016: i don't have a well defined sytem, i'm not a revoluionary =)
Exitil: yeah I'm not tryin to attack
Exitil: just trying to understand
Diablo7016: that people have so much and others have so little
Diablo7016: due to the supposed "natural order"

[Ignoring the comment about "the supposed natural order" that I have no idea what he's referring to with.]

Exitil: but you agree that people who work harder, who can do more, should have more right?
Diablo7016: of course
Exitil: should keep the products of their labor, right?
Diablo7016: we share in the labor and we share in the products
Diablo7016: we are all brothers and sisters on this planet
Exitil: what do you mean to imply by "we share in the labor and we share in the products, we are all brothers and sisters in the planet"?
Exitil: sounds like an argument for equal distribution of wealth
Exitil: but you're saying at the same time that people who work harder should get more
Diablo7016: hahaha
Diablo7016: maybe eventually
Diablo7016: i'm saying that the wealth should be more equally distributed than it is
Exitil: ok
Diablo7016: not necessarily distribute completely equal

[The specifics of how and why can be dealt with later. Perhaps his reasoning for this position can be reapplied to persuade him of an improved position.]

[Tangents.]

Exitil: I'm still curious about your principles though
Diablo7016: i gave you a generalized outline
Diablo7016: don't harm anyone else
Exitil: right
Diablo7016: other than that do what you wish
Diablo7016: "how do you define 'harm'?"
Diablo7016: is what you might ask
Diablo7016: that's tricky and harder to explain
Exitil: well I'd agree with that, but I define harm differently
Exitil: ::grin::
Exitil: right
Exitil: like for example..
Exitil: health care and education are services/products
Exitil: products of labor in other words
Exitil: to take them is to take someone else's efforts
Diablo7016: the problem is if you withold health care it can harm people
Exitil: its like if I were to build a house, and because you dont have one, you take it from me
Exitil: it doesnt harm them though, it allows them to be harmed
Diablo7016: their life will be incredibly harder
Exitil: if you suddenly get sick and are going to die unless you get $50,000
Exitil: if I dont pay you the $50,000
Exitil: that doesnt make me a murderer
Exitil: I didnt kill you or harm you in any way
Exitil: the sickness did
Diablo7016: no of course not
Exitil: if you get sick, do you have a right to some of my money?
Diablo7016: but that doesn't mean my fellow brothers and sisters can't help me out
Diablo7016: not your money
Exitil: whose then?
Diablo7016: but the pool of money
Exitil: the pool of money comes from me [in part]
Diablo7016: that we put into the gov't through taxes
Exitil: and from others
Exitil: same difference
Diablo7016: yes we are all brothers and sisters
Exitil: that doesnt mean anything
Exitil: no, we are not all brothers and sisters first of all
Exitil: thats a new agey nonsense phrase
Exitil: sorry to react to it like that lol
Exitil: but I really detest new age philosophy
Exitil: I'm used to dealing with ideas
Exitil: not slogans
Diablo7016: we are all in this together
Diablo7016: life, life's crap
Diablo7016: we suffer together
Diablo7016: we sink or swim together
Exitil: so because of that we should be allowed to steal from eachother?
Diablo7016: to me we have a moral obligation to help others

[Notice the "to me" rather than "I think". The way he says it doesn't even make logical sense. It sound similar to "to me the ball looks green", implying a subjectivist view of morality.]

Exitil: my bad luck is your bad luck?
Diablo7016: it wouldn't be steal, it'd be because we want to
Exitil: my misfortune means I can take your fortune?
Diablo7016: you don't take mine, i'm being taxed incase of unfortunate circimstances should strike
Diablo7016: not all my money is gone
Diablo7016: it's taxing people

["Taxed incase of", "it's taxing people"? Is English his primary language? I hope not. Well, it is. I just found out he's from Pennsylvania (and he's also 19 years old, the same as me). It makes him a lot harder to respond to when what he's actually saying is incoherent and has to be interpreted. I'm assuming he means that somehow taxes are not thefts because the government takes it instead of a person.]

Exitil: taxes that are involuntary
Exitil: its still a theft
Exitil: taxes arent just a part of life
Exitil: they're a specific action taken by specific individuals with the support of specific other individuals
Diablo7016: but people get stuff out of taxes
Exitil: then they should be able to choose what they want
Exitil: and pay for what they ask for
Exitil: if I walk into a store
Exitil: wanting a loaf of bread
Exitil: no better yet
Exitil: if I'm walking down the street, *near* a store
Exitil: the store owner cant run outside, mug me, and hand me a loaf of bread and a donut
Exitil: and then say because I wanted a sandwich
Exitil: he gave me part of what I wanted so he has a right to take my money
Diablo7016: yeah sure
Exitil: which is what the gov't does
Exitil: whereas I should be able to join into some sort of voluntary health care insurance policy
Exitil: everyone knows sickness strikes randomly
Exitil: cancer isnt completely predictable
Exitil: and left to your own devices, unless you're a millionare, you'll die
Diablo7016: but why not let the gov't be your insurance provider?
Exitil: so, everyone with half a brain would contribute
Diablo7016: that cuts out all the crap
Diablo7016: and you'd still have choice
Exitil: you dont still have the choice
Exitil: the gov't mugs you
Exitil: an insurance policy is voluntary
Diablo7016: there'd still be private practices
Exitil: gov't mandates are not
Exitil: yes, private practices but with the gov't taking your money and then you just choosing which one you redirect the money to
Exitil: its still not freedom
Exitil: everyone with half a brain would contribute to the health care insurance fund
Diablo7016: is anyone being harmed though?
Exitil: therefore whoever it strikes would be helped out
Diablo7016: they might not have the money
Exitil: then other people would have to voluntarily help them. if they didnt, they would die
Exitil: meaning, they still have the choice to let them die
Exitil: its harsh, but the alternative is much worse
Diablo7016: to me the alternative is much worse
Exitil: whenever I "need" something I can take it from you
Diablo7016: wait no
Diablo7016: i mean your plan is much worse
Diablo7016: people can die
Diablo7016: people can be harmed
Exitil: they arent being harmed
Diablo7016: pool our resources together
Diablo7016: and no one gets harmed
Diablo7016: we get medical treatment
Diablo7016: we make a decent living
Exitil: plenty of people get harmed
Diablo7016: decent education
Diablo7016: and we can reduce that
Diablo7016: "the greatest good for the greatest number"
Exitil: I hate that principle
Diablo7016: i obviously love it =)
Exitil: yes but why?
Diablo7016: to me this wouldn't be force, we'd WANT to help others
Exitil: but what if we DONT want to
Diablo7016: well then most people would be in rough shape except the wealthy
Exitil: so we should be forced to, we should be stolen from, you're saying
Diablo7016: well i obvously woulldn't call it stolen
Diablo7016: a gov't needs to take care of it's people
Diablo7016: and to take of its people it needs money
Diablo7016: and we are the gov't

[For some reason he thinks government has a moral mandate to violate individual rights to achieve the arbitrary purpose of the greatest good for the greatest number. Why does it have that moral mandate? Why pursue that purpose?]

Exitil: a gov't is just a group of people
Diablo7016: we elect and support the gov't
Exitil: why does it have the right to take what's mine?
Diablo7016: because you get something out of it
Diablo7016: free education, medecine, transit
Exitil: so when you're walking down the street
Diablo7016: a decent living wage
Exitil: and I mug you and hand you a donut
Exitil: you wont have any problem with that
Diablo7016: well, i do. i don't see your connection
Exitil: you're getting a donut out of it
Exitil: and I'm stealing from you
Exitil: same as the gov't stealing from me and giving me 1% back of what I want
Diablo7016: i don't consider taxes being mugged
Exitil: if it gave me 100% of what I want, it wouldnt have to be involuntary
Exitil: well thats what it is
Exitil: I dont consent
Exitil: I want my money
Exitil: I do not want it taken from me
Exitil: its mine
Exitil: I work for it
Exitil: it is not yours or theirs or anyones but mine
Diablo7016: that's a form of greed and selfishness i can never be apart of

[That it's selfish to keep what's mine doesn't change the fact that it's mine.]

Exitil: in a free society if you reached in my pockets I would shoot you dead [exaggeration, that would only be done if it was necessary to retrieve the money, which it probably wouldn't be]
Diablo7016: why do you need so much money?
Exitil: who cares why I need it?
Exitil: its mine
Diablo7016: why does it bother you that other people get help?
Diablo7016: that's the bigger issue here
Exitil: its that they think they deserve what I make
Exitil: thats what i have a problem with
Exitil: if you take away my right to what I make, you take away my right to the good life I can provide myself
Exitil: you'll let me have some semblance of a good life
Diablo7016: i say this a lot "deserve's got nothing to do with it"
Exitil: but not the one I couldve had

[If deserve has nothing to do with it then where does his argument come from that I should hand over my products to the gov't or "the people"?]

Diablo7016: you can still provide for yourself
Diablo7016: i'm sure your doing just fine
Exitil: theoretically, I could be
Exitil: but it still wouldnt be enough
Exitil: its not what I couldve had
Exitil: and I have only one life
Exitil: and you're taking part of it
Diablo7016: if you became a billionare
Diablo7016: why would taxes bother you?
Diablo7016: i'm saying "if"
Diablo7016: you'd still be rich beyond belief
Exitil: because I can do more with the money than I can without the money
Exitil: I can use it to finance revolution
Exitil: to build a better world
Diablo7016: so you believe in trickle down economics

[Does what I said have anything to do with trickle down economics? No. Ignoring that comment.]

Exitil: I think in a nonexploitative economy
Diablo7016: you wouldn't put all your money to that use
Exitil: anyone who has a billion dollars, would have provided a billion dollars worth of goods to society
Exitil: the fact that I have a billion dollars doesnt mean I've taken
Exitil: it means I've given that much in products, and not asked for it in return
Exitil: the more money I have, the more you owe me
Diablo7016: no one says you took it
Exitil: not the other way around
Diablo7016: but why not pay taxes?
Exitil: because I dont like being stolen from
Diablo7016: so i should pay you taxes?

[I didn't mean he actually was indebted to me, I only mean it in the sense that the exchange of money is a sort of promise that some other goods will be provided by the second party at a later time in exchange for goods already given by the first party. Ignoring the question as it doesn't deserve a response.]

Exitil: thats like saying, i you have $1000
Exitil: if you have rather
Exitil: and walk down the street
Exitil: and somebody mugs you but only for $100
Exitil: what should you care?
Exitil: [because] it's still your money
Exitil: as for the billions
Diablo7016: it's different, you can afford the taxes
Diablo7016: you're still rich
Exitil: if I worked to make the billion
Exitil: I would have a use for the billion
Diablo7016: and it helps people who are on the bottom being eploited
Exitil: if I didnt have a use for it, I wouldnt have worked for it
Diablo7016: what about the people on the bottom?
Exitil: no sense wasting my time getting something I dont need
Diablo7016: the ones are being exploited
Exitil: not everyone at the bottom is being exploited
Exitil: they are now
Exitil: but thats a product of capitalism
Exitil: not a product of wealth
Diablo7016: so end capitalism?
Exitil: yes
Exitil: end capitalism, you solve 90% of this
Diablo7016: yeah sure
Exitil: and the other 10% should exist, its not immoral
Diablo7016: end it, and equally distribute everything =)
Exitil: no
Diablo7016: haha but with no capitalism, what else is there
Exitil: fair market
Exitil: which is...
Diablo7016: if you go by marx's models of history it goes communal to slavery to feudalism to capitalism to socialism to communism
Exitil: everyone gets an equal share of the raw materials that no one has created (iron ore, gold, crude oil, land, etc.)...
Exitil: but gets to keep all products of their labor, improvements on their equal share and any share they've leased from others through trade as equals
Exitil: simplified example :
Exitil: we both start out with an acre of land
Exitil: if you sit on your ass, and I till and plant my land
Exitil: I get to eat the food, and you can starve
Diablo7016: this is fairly equally disrtibuted
Diablo7016: with equal resources our products would be fairly equal too
Diablo7016: so there's no problem with this system
Diablo7016: in theory
Exitil: possibly, but those of us with truly greater ability could earn more
Diablo7016: but what if i don't want to grow food on my land
Diablo7016: i want to teach
Exitil: inventors etc. might rack up quite a bit of cash
Diablo7016: then what?
Exitil: you could lease out your land to someone else
Diablo7016: who pays me to teach?
Exitil: and then you could try to find a teaching job
Exitil: people who want to send their children to school
Exitil: or actually, the children themselves could
Exitil: they'd all have an equal share of raw materials too first of all
Diablo7016: 1 yr olds?
Exitil: yes (though when they can consent would be debated)
Exitil: (you'd have to invest a certain amount of education just to getting them to the intellectual state where their consent counts)
Exitil: and then you could get a loan from a bank
Exitil: and get a contract with your students
Exitil: 10% of their earnings
Exitil: or 5% or whatever
Diablo7016: education would be the most important resource
Diablo7016: i'd be rich
Exitil: others would compete with you
Diablo7016: i'll brutally rape and murder them....
Diablo7016: no one will stand in my way!!!
Exitil: that's immoral and defense associations would hunt you down and shoot you [if necessary and cost effective]
Exitil: after a proper trial of course
Diablo7016: i'll gather outher teachers and shoot them first
Exitil: most people arent [that] immoral
Exitil: so that plan wont work
Diablo7016: haha well, for this at all to work you need to make sure people aren't immoral
Diablo7016: that's the biggest IF in your theory
Exitil: even in a gov't thats an if
Exitil: if 60% of the US decided to be immoral
Exitil: the US could do nothing to stop the rampage
Diablo7016: of course not
Exitil: 1000 men will defeat 100 and the 100 will defeat 10
Exitil: thats true in any system
Exitil: so the if is irrelevant
Diablo7016: well, actualy i totaly disagree
Diablo7016: we have the most powerful military
Diablo7016: our military could destroy us
Exitil: yes but not because the US is a gov't
Exitil: an individual sovereigntist defense association in a particular set of circumstances could also have the most powerful military
Exitil: being a thief is not a guarantee of power
Exitil: nor is being a nonthief a guarantee of weakness
Exitil: there are ways to do all important things in both systems
Exitil: why is "the greatest good for the greatest number" the principle we should follow?
Diablo7016: it is moral
Diablo7016: in my opinion
Diablo7016: we both agree morals are important
Diablo7016: but we differ in what morality is
Exitil: yes, but your opinion should be based on some fact yes?
Diablo7016: to me we give to the gov't in a pool and it takes cafe of our needs

[There's that "to me" again. This time though it's plainly about an absolute fact : that we are taxed by the gov't and it provides some services in exchange. Facts are not dependent on what he thinks or feels or interprets things as. I assume though that he means that we *should* give to the gov't, not only that we do.]

Diablo7016: well, my fact is that you need a gov't to protect people

[Notice : "my fact", not "the facts".]

Exitil: untrue
Diablo7016: your theory has never been done in the real world

[Irrelevant. By applying general principles of human action in the context of a specific environment we can determine the likely events with as much accuracy as we have information about the situation.]

Exitil: you need some sort of system of organization
Exitil: and an armed force
Diablo7016: you're not dealing with facts
Exitil: to defend people

[Okay, obviously he's not going to discuss it in terms of principles. He wants concrete historical examples, so I might as well try to offer some.]

Exitil: Spanish Civil War
Diablo7016: you're dealing with theories
Exitil: anarchist militias
Exitil: fought very effectively given their numerical disadvantage
Exitil: not to mention the fact that their opponents had Nazi supplies
Diablo7016: well, let's not forget it [wasn't] entirely anarchists
Exitil: yes, also commies
Diablo7016: it was anarchists, communists, socialists, liberals, etc
Exitil: nod
Exitil: but specifically the anarchists also held their own
Exitil: also Nestor Mahkno in the Ukraine
Diablo7016: we still have not seen your form of gov't
Exitil: defeated a much larger opponent
Exitil: until the Red Army decided he was no longer useful
Exitil: well prior to ancient greece there'd never been a democracy
Exitil: and prior to 1917 there'd never been even an imperfect attempt at communism
Exitil: so really that argument's worth nothing
Diablo7016: yes but communism didn't work

[What does that have to do with the point I'm making? Nothing.]

Diablo7016: we've never seen true communism
Exitil: Russian communism wasnt communism
Exitil: right
Diablo7016: it failed
Exitil: "it" didnt fail, because "it" wasnt it
Exitil: but the point is
Diablo7016: well, it did fail
Diablo7016: the soviets collapsed
Exitil: we can still predict
Diablo7016: the point that's illustrated is that communism can't be done
Exitil: Russia wasnt communism
Diablo7016: capitalism has been proven to be the most effective system
Exitil: capitalism has been proven the most effective *so far*
Diablo7016: of course not

[Then what was the point of your tangent argument?]

Exitil: its actually free market thats the most effective
Exitil: capitalism and the free market are not the same thing
Exitil: capitalism is piggybacking
Diablo7016: free markets have always been a disaster
Exitil: free markets are part of capitalism
Diablo7016: where ever there's a free market it doesn't work
Exitil: you cant say capitalism is a triumph without saying a free market is
Diablo7016: and i'm talking 100%
Diablo7016: even in capitalism there is some regulation
Exitil: if its not 100% its not capitalism either
Exitil: no, thats not true
Exitil: you're using what you've heard on the news [in political speeches]
Diablo7016: it is true
Exitil: no one who was actually a proponent of capitalism
Diablo7016: no i'm using history
Exitil: when capitalism was a theory
Exitil: would have agreed
Exitil: you're talking about mixed implementations of capito-socialism
Exitil: not capitalism
Diablo7016: look at the free market/liberal movements in europe in the 1800s
Diablo7016: it failed brutally
Diablo7016: people starved
Exitil: there are reasons for that
Diablo7016: specifically look at france
Exitil: its not the free market's fault specifically
Diablo7016: where the king instituted free market
Exitil: we're getting off into tangents
Diablo7016: and the farmers held out
Exitil: can we try to stick to the point?
Diablo7016: sure
Exitil: I cant discuss this if we're hopping from country to country to country in a big history lesson
Exitil: where a billion variables are responsible for what happened in each case
Exitil: lets look at this simply
Diablo7016: we never had a complete free market here either
Exitil: you have a group of 10 people
Diablo7016: corporations got their foot off the ground due to state owned land
Exitil: and you have 2 thieves in another group
Exitil: you're saying "you need a government to protect you"
Exitil: those 10 people, you say, cant protect themselves
Diablo7016: it's not thieves
Diablo7016: i'm not worried about that
Diablo7016: i'm worried about education
Diablo7016: medecine
Diablo7016: decent living
Exitil: but you said defense
Exitil: you said you cant defend yourself without a gov't
Exitil: obviously the 10 can organize some sort of militia to combat the thieves
Diablo7016: defend me from monoplies and the elite
Diablo7016: i'm not talking about physical
Diablo7016: white collar crime
Diablo7016: greed
Diablo7016: corruption
Exitil: in that case, you're right
Exitil: no one can defend you from things that arent crimes
Exitil: except a criminal who will thieve from them for you
Exitil: the gov't
Diablo7016: it takes from me too
Diablo7016: i put into the system
Exitil: oh and that makes it okay
Diablo7016: we all put in
Diablo7016: to help one another
Diablo7016: in my opinion yes
Exitil: so if you put in $10 toward buying yourself some sneakers
Diablo7016: that makes it okay
Exitil: and then you mug somebody else for the rest
Exitil: because you chipped in
Exitil: somehow that isnt a theft
Diablo7016: i'm not going to hurt anyone to get it
Exitil: you ARE hurting them
Exitil: you're taking their money
Exitil: thats hurting them
Exitil: they wont have what they couldve had because of you
Diablo7016: the communication break down we're having is you revert to this arguement when i don't see taxes as mugging
Exitil: which is a failure to see the facts
Diablo7016: we'll never get past this point
Diablo7016: haha
Diablo7016: i see the facts
Exitil: okay, I sit here with say $1000
Diablo7016: we need to help one another
Exitil: you decide so and so needs some money for an operation
Exitil: so you come over and you say you want $500
Exitil: I say no
Exitil: you say, well you'll still have $500 more
Exitil: and they need the operation
Diablo7016: no i wouldn't do that
Exitil: I say no again, I have other plans for my money
Diablo7016: i'd take a little frome veryone
Exitil: okay, you want $10 of my money
Diablo7016: AND in my moral world you wouldn't mind

[More subjectivism.]

Diablo7016: because i'm going to DIE
Exitil: but I DO mind
Diablo7016: you care not if steve dies??
Exitil: not necessarily
Exitil: not any generic steve
Exitil: a specific steve perhaps
Exitil: but not just anyone
Diablo7016: i'm steve
Diablo7016: my name is steve
Exitil: you, the parasitical leeching mugging looter, who thinks I live to serve you and provide you with the products of my labor?
Exitil: heck I'd pay for drugs to kill you faster
Diablo7016: we live to serve no one, just to help each other out
Diablo7016: haha i'd take the drugs
Exitil: but if I dont CHOOSE to help you
Exitil: then it is taking, it is serving
Exitil: it is being a slave
Diablo7016: your taxes go to other issues, not just my medecine
Diablo7016: most likely the money I put into the system would come back to help me
Exitil: but I dont want to pay for your medicine
Exitil: I dont agree to pay the taxes to begin with
Diablo7016: let's say i keep paying taxes and paying taxes
Exitil: I can provide the other services for myself
Diablo7016: then one day i need an operation
Diablo7016: well i put mine in
Exitil: then you should get your tax money back
Exitil: and anyone else who made an agreement
Exitil: to pay for your operation
Exitil: because they mightve needed one
Exitil: if luck had swung the other way
Exitil: should also help pay for it
Exitil: but not just everyone
Diablo7016: what if i can get no one to pay for it?
Exitil: then you die
Diablo7016: that's too harsh of a world that i don't want to be present in
Exitil: its unfortunate, but the alternative is an entire society enslaved
Diablo7016: it's not slavery, you're living your life
Diablo7016: just some taxes you pay
Exitil: but my work is not my own
Exitil: my life is not my own
Exitil: you can take what you "need"
Exitil: if my life is not my own, thats slavery
Diablo7016: the gov't takes for all our needs
Exitil: the gov't isnt just some "thing"
Diablo7016: no one can tell you how to live
Exitil: the gov't is you and people like you
Diablo7016: the gov't is the people
Exitil: no
Exitil: the gov't is specific people
Exitil: not "the" people
Exitil: there is no "the people"
Exitil: "the people" dont exist
Exitil: "society" is not one being
Diablo7016: in my world it would be "the people"

[Sounds subjectivist, but he's actually saying if he could change the world people would act for the collective good.]

Exitil: it is a group of many individuals
Exitil: in your world, in your head [responding to it thinking it was subjectivist]
Exitil: in the real world, this world, society is composed of individuals
Exitil: we have separate minds, separate hearts
Diablo7016: "cult of individuality" is the criticism many asian nations have of the western world
Diablo7016: and i agree
Diablo7016: we have a fetish for the individual at all costs
Diablo7016: to the point of fucking over others
Exitil: well I can see why you would
Exitil: you think in slogans, not in principles
Exitil: I'm surprised you can tie your shoes
Exitil: and get yourself fed
Exitil: you really dont actually think at all
Diablo7016: haha
Exitil: theres just these slogans bouncing around in there
Diablo7016: i do just fine
Diablo7016: hahaha
Exitil: no actual reasons for anything, just things that take the place of reasons
Diablo7016: they aren't slogans bro
Diablo7016: they're a better world

[Which is just another slogan.]

Exitil: that are just slogans begging the question for more reasons
Exitil: a better world where I am enslaved
Exitil: not a world I want to be a part of
Diablo7016: but you're saying all these words "stealing" and "enslavement"
Diablo7016: when it's not either
Diablo7016: get over yourself and contribute
Exitil: thats what it actually is, in the real world, this world, the only world that exists
Exitil: stealing = taking without consent
Exitil: enslavement = to be owned by another
Exitil: for another to have the right to use you as they wish
Exitil: if you claim a right to my products, thats what you claim
Exitil: you claim that I am your slave
Diablo7016: you're basically a libertarian to the extreme
Diablo7016: and that's a cruel hearless world that no one wants to be apart of. where there is no law or gov't all for the sake of the individual

[Bandalero]

hey man i like these new topics....but this one is going to take me all day to read.

[Solidarity 9-6347]

hey ayn rand, my eyes hurt

[Johnny]

Uhhhhh. Too much! My eyes cant take it

[happening fish]

who are these people?