"Shit happens" - iraq

mosaik · Post by **mosaik** » 2/27/2003, 1:23 pm

some interesting stats:

- More than 1,200,000 civilians in Iraq have died since the start of the Gulf War, when Iraq invaded Kuwait on August 2, 1990 (Source: United Nations and Iraq).

- An estimated 100,000 Iraqi soldiers died during Operation Desert Storm between January 17, 1991 and February 28, 1991 (Source: News Reports).

[source - the national gulf war resource center]

12 civillians per soldier. does anybody else see a problem with this?

Sufjan Stevens · Post by **Sufjan Stevens** » 2/27/2003, 1:30 pm

That man is a hero. Well, maybe not hero, but one smart son of a bitch.

thirdhour · Post by **thirdhour** » 2/27/2003, 1:43 pm

one last question. if the US is so intent on helping the world, then why will they not sign the anti landmine treaty? Landmines can't tell if the person they are going to kill is a soldier or just a farmer trying to make enough food for his family to survive. Landmines can't tell when a war is over. I have seen first-hand the horrors of landmines and know they must stop. These kids weren't even born when the war was going on, but they are now crippled for life.

Corey · Post by **Corey** » 2/27/2003, 5:09 pm

Doug Bin Laden wrote:some interesting stats:

- More than 1,200,000 civilians in Iraq have died since the start of the Gulf War, when Iraq invaded Kuwait on August 2, 1990 (Source: United Nations and Iraq).

- An estimated 100,000 Iraqi soldiers died during Operation Desert Storm between January 17, 1991 and February 28, 1991 (Source: News Reports).

[source - the national gulf war resource center]

12 civillians per soldier. does anybody else see a problem with this?

Is there statistics on how many were killed by US troops? by Iraqi troops? by other civilians?

P.S. I'm not defending any side with this comment, merely curious.

mosaik · Post by **mosaik** » 2/27/2003, 5:14 pm

Corey, to answer your question, no.

I looked high and low, far and wide, for anything to back those numbers up, but unfortunately there is nothing.

Take them as dubious at best I suppose.

Corey · Post by **Corey** » 2/27/2003, 5:17 pm

Thanks Doug.

This is why I hate statistics. They never paint the whole picture. They are merely a marketing tool.

Let's ban statistics. Who's with me?!?! :evil:

thirdhour · Post by **thirdhour** » 2/27/2003, 10:03 pm

I don't know...they can sometimes help prove a point...the point being alot of people are being killed by war and this is not a ggod thing.

Corey · Post by **Corey** » 2/27/2003, 11:22 pm

We don't know that. The stats specifically say that 1,200,000 people died since the war began. It does not state from what. They could be dying of hunger. They could be dying by suicide bombers. They could've all died from heart attacks.... we simple don't know.

Corey · Post by **Corey** » 2/27/2003, 11:24 pm

example:

And of all the accusations hurled against the West in its treatment of Iraq, the most damning is the human cost of sanctions. According to many peace groups, humanitarian organizations and politicians, sanctions have killed 500,000 Iraqi children. The total death toll from sanctions amounts to a million and a half innocent people.

Are these figures credible?

Only if you believe Saddam Hussein.

The truth is that these numbers come straight from Iraq's mighty propaganda factory. What gives them credibility is that they were endorsed in a 1999 report by Unicef. What's not so well-known is that the report was co-authored by the Iraqi health ministry, and all the statistics were supplied by the Iraqi government.

The first person to debunk these numbers was an Iraq expert named Amatzia Baram. In a lengthy analysis in The Middle East Journal, he revealed that there was no actual body count. Despite claims that 4,000 or 5,000 or 7,561 children were dying every month from sanctions, Iraqi officials simply made the numbers up. They did it by subtracting the population in 1997 from what they thought the population should have been, and blamed sanctions for the difference. Mr. Baram reached a different conclusion: "Most of the persons missing in 1997 according to the Iraqi claim were never born."

Bandalero · Post by **Bandalero** » 2/27/2003, 11:44 pm

one last question. if the US is so intent on helping the world, then why will they not sign the anti landmine treaty? Landmines can't tell if the person they are going to kill is a soldier or just a farmer trying to make enough food for his family to survive. Landmines can't tell when a war is over. I have seen first-hand the horrors of landmines and know they must stop. These kids weren't even born when the war was going on, but they are now crippled for life.

i don't know...good question. but what i can tell you is that back in world war II, after Japan surrendered, we sent economists over to Japan, and rebuilt their economic structure. as you all can see, Japan has a solid market now, that is well off.

and you think we're not going to do this for Iraq?

mosaik · Post by **mosaik** » 2/28/2003, 2:02 am

he's right, the 1,200,000 number seems to be highly inflated. even the most generous casualty numbers don't put the number of DIRECT DEATHS caused by Gulf War I to be higher then 300,00

the 1.2 million number must have other factors involved. the source for that number is mostly iraqi statistics so.....

dubious. at best.

Corey · Post by **Corey** » 2/28/2003, 4:11 pm

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/gulf.w ... s/gulfwar/

In June 1991, the U.S. estimated that more than 100,000 Iraqi soldiers died, 300,000 were wounded, 150,000 deserted and 60,000 were taken prisoner. Many human rights groups claimed a much higher number of Iraqis were killed in action. According to Baghdad, civilian casualties numbered more than 35,000. However, since the war, some scholars have concluded that the number of Iraqi soldiers who were killed was significantly less than initially reported.

http://www.futurenet.org/iraq/morelookofwar.htm

According to the book War and Public Health by the American Public Health Association, between 50,000 and 100,000 Iraqi soldiers were killed in the Gulf War and between 2,500 and 3,500 civilians were killed during the Gulf War bombing campaign. After the bombing campaign ended, civilian deaths rose to 111,000, including 70,000 children, due in part to damaged medical facilities and shortages of medicines. Landmines, unexploded ordnance, and anti-personnel bombs from the Gulf War continue to kill or maim Iraqi civilians, especially children.

Corey · Post by **Corey** » 2/28/2003, 4:23 pm

good lord... look at all the discrepencies in these articles!

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/stats.htm

WHAT ABOUT THE FINAL IRAQI DEATH TOLL ?

v Greepeace Assessment: (analyst William Arkin)

... The 43 Day War killed up to 140,000 Iraqis, an average of 3000 per day, or

three times the daily death rate during the Vietnam War

... 1000 continue to die each week, will bring the total to 200,000

v US Deptartment of Defense estimates on soldiers were:

... 100,000 killed

... 300,000 wounded

v Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)

... released 22May91 to Natural Resources Defense Council

... 100,000 to 120,000 Iraqi soldiers killed

... 150,000 troops deserted

... did not account for the 60,000 to 80,000 that were POW's

v Ken Brower Military Analyst

... DIA's estimate is preposterous

... estimates that 32,000 were Killed

... US troops report only burying 450 Iraqi's

... During WWII 4 tons bombs/fatality

... Gulf War expended 88,000 tons of bombs

> 2.75 tons per fatality for 32,000 KIA

v 343 Allied war deaths

... 145 Americans killed in combat

... 121 Americans killed by accidents

v Dallas Morning News Summary (12Jan92, pg22A), summarized that the

total was in fact far less than the DIA's 100,000 estimate. It notes that some

analysts believe that as few as 8,000 Iraqi dead could have been achieved in

the KTO based on extrapolations from casualty figures of past wars. The

Iraqi force was exaggerated, not the 600,000 briefed, but more like

225,000. From that 65,000 were accounted for as prisoners, thus leaving

around 25,000 to 50,000 to be casualties.

liam · Post by **liam** » 2/28/2003, 8:46 pm

Iraq should be dissarmed he told us he would dissarm 14 years ago and never did... what the hell are we supposed to do?

thirdhour · Post by **thirdhour** » 3/1/2003, 11:36 pm

Bomb him to hell...sounds like a plan!!!

Bandalero · Post by **Bandalero** » 3/2/2003, 1:15 am

that's just part of the plan...your forgetting about the rebuilding of that country.

I AM ME · Post by **I AM ME** » 3/2/2003, 1:27 am

hmmm just a question to see where everyone is standing, i just want to double check some fundamental beielfs and values here,

Somethings that should be universaly accepted, if you don't accept there's probably no nicer way to put it then you have a horrible, cold and for lack of better words evil side.

1) Killing innocents is wrong, no matter who is doing the killing or for what reason, the death of innocents should be avoided, because you never know when you might be one of those innocent deaths someone is disregarding, Arab or caucasian.

2) Racism/Nationalism/Sexism is WRONG, no matter how nicely you say it or reword it Racism is wrong, if only we were all blind, and only saw ppl for what they were.......

3) Ignorance should be the largest crime of all, anyone that does not form there own oppion and is not informed unbiasedly is a plague upon all people around them

4) No one is better then anyone, there for no one is fit to control anyones life if it's against there will

5) Killing for your god should be the biggest most disgusting sacrilige possible. All main religons have Killing as a Prime sin. Killing in your gods name is like a slap to the face of your chosen deity, you are commiting the biggest sin IN your gods name, in a way making the sin your gods, i can see no larger sacrilige or irony

Bandalero · Post by **Bandalero** » 3/2/2003, 2:26 am

1) your right on here bro. no one in a modern army on this planet is gunning for a 5 year old, the horrible truth about war is that it is messy and accidents happen where an innocent life is comprimised.

2 & 3) perfect! got this one on the dot here, because racism is nothing but ignorance, and ignorance about a persons beliefs, or way of life should not be tolerared.

4) this is true too. there's a few that will argue this thinking that democratic government is an example of someone being better then another person. but in actuality, democracy doesn't work. The US government is a republic, where we elect people to represent/work for us. politicians are in office to service their public and not for personal gain. sometimes i think that the people we elect are thinking the other way. sadamn for sure thinks this way.

5) very very true. anyone who tries to force their beliefs on another person should be put in jail. This Palistinian/Israel issue is about religion, it's been going on for so long that other issues are being piled onto it, but the main reason is religion and i find it childish.

emily · Post by **emily** » 3/2/2003, 8:47 am

But if we bomb him, won't he bomb us too? He has nothing to live for and he figures that if he's gonna die, he might as well take some of us down with him.

Corey · Post by **Corey** » 3/2/2003, 8:55 am

reno_ruelas wrote:5) very very true. anyone who tries to force their beliefs on another person should be put in jail. This Palistinian/Israel issue is about religion, it's been going on for so long that other issues are being piled onto it, but the main reason is religion and i find it childish.

Yes, I agree. This is very sad. My Indian co-worker tells me stories of how in India, radicals would ask random people what religion they were and if they said [insert religion here], they would kill them on the spot. Very, very sad.

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"Shit happens" - iraq