State of the Union Address

[Axtech]

I was pointing out the good that the US does in this world by helping others.

Yes, but you say it like all Americans are saints. You say it like no other country does anything good. You also sound like you think that America can do no wrong...

[call me andrew]

Hey Doug when you find this perfect world that is perfect and just for everyone where no one feels hurt, let me know. Fact of the matter is perfection doesn't exist in things like government. Not many things can be perfect. Sure you can bowl a perfect game, or throw a perfect game in baseball, but government.....sorry pal. You're searching for something you won't find anywhere. You can bitch about injustices till you're blue in the face and guess what? You're just spinning your tires. Fact of the matter is that the US is about as perfect as you get in todays world. You wanna goto N. Korea and have to be on house arrest and be told what you can and can't wear. You wanna be told where you can and can't go? How about Iraq.....your leader can gas you and your family hows that sound. Or wait why don't you goto Africa where in 10 years you'll die of AIDS because there is no money for treatment. Where do you wanna go Doug? I know you can't be happy in Canada. No one is denying that there are some corrupt people in government, but what we are denying is your claim that what the US government is about to do is wrong. Do you think it was wrong to goto WWII? You think Hitler was a good guy? Well I'll tell you what Saddam and Hitler have a lot of similarities along with Stalin. You keep ranting your Anti-War rhetoric and we'll keep debating because you don't put up much of a test......in the meantime start campaining for a governmental office and make the world right my friend. You seem to have all the answers to the worlds problems. I mean the US would be much better off with you at the helm than anyone else.

there is something washington can do about the israelis. ...

i suggest that we stop sending them 6billion dollars a year.
i suggest that we actualy tell sharone to stop invading palistinian territories.

after we do that, yeah. only time will play this out. but at least we can stop funding it.

[happening fish]

Well its Billions of dollars (15 to be exact) and what do you propose we do? We are DIRECTLY giving them the money. We're not going through the UN the money is going from Washington to the countries in Africa that need it. If they choose not to use it for AIDS relief, guess what? They won't get anymore. The point is we're giving it to them. Is Canada sending Billions of dollars to Africa to help those people? Nope. They have their own health problems....serious ones. I don't see any other countries pledging anything close to the amount that the US is. So to get to the point........What is your point?? I was pointing out the good that the US does in this world by helping others.

once again, you're being fooled by a facade. 15 billion dollars was promised. Almost none of it actually got sent. But the public was not worth telling that too since the whole thing was a publicity stunt anyway. Do a little research into it. And I don't see how attacking Canada backs up your argument and invalidates mine? This isn't Canada we're discussing here. And as a side note, Canada is not the one spending 25% of its huge budget on the military, a fraction of which could provide the entire world with clean water. 1/3 of the world doesn't have enough to eat. 50% has never made a phone call. You have 4% of the population and more money than the 600 poorest countries put together, and you do nothing. Justify that.

[mosaik]

africa has nothing to do with any amerikans.

ok. i just had this fight with my dad, too. so i'm now prepared to take all the psycho babble out of it. just pretend, for five minutes, that even though the conspiracy-theory guys do make very good arguments (and often times provide more evidence then colin powell) lets pretend they're wrong.

there are still some very good reasons to stay out of iraq.

for one thing, we know Saddam does not have the weapons the us says he does. nobody outside of amerika believes that, and even within your "great" nation there are still people who are skeptical.

number two, i am still fundamentally opposed to anybody acting as the final moral arbiter. if you can prove to me that GWB knows what is right and what is wrong, and acts with the hand of God behind him, then i will change my mind and admit you're right.

go ahead and try.

[Venom]

OK from now on I'm just gonna ignore you fish you don't know what you're talking about. That 15 Billion was JUST pledged last week so of course its not there yet. Its part of this years budget. You don't have a clue so please just goto the nonsense forum before you get hurt, or just read and you may learn something. The reason Canada doesn't spend much on its military is because they know America will protect them. They have no need for a military. The military you do have came to Afghanistan with us. If you are against this kind of action why don't you criticize your own government. They are also supporting the war against Iraq. Also I don't see your government sending money anywhere to help anyone.

Doug, Doug, Doug........did you not see all the weapons that the inspectors found last time before Saddam kicked them out??? They knew there were more and would have found them. Thats why Saddam booted them. He didn't want them destroyed. Do I have to post the reports from the inspectors from 90's?? Do you think someone who tried so hard to build up his arsenal actually just destroyed them after he forced the inspectors out?? If "everyone" in the world knew he didn't have them there would never have been a resolution 1441. Why have they found 18 chemical warheads that weren't declared?

if you can prove to me that GWB knows what is right and what is wrong, and acts with the hand of God behind him

Who is this God you speak of? And where did that come from? How is the hand of a population control device relevant in this debate.

[Axtech]

Are you really so ignorant that you think you're right about everything? You have NO IDEA what goes on behind closed doors. This is ALL speculation.

[Venom]

All of my evidence has been backed up with facts. Follow some of the links. All the conspiracy crap that everyone else is spitting is speculation. What have I said thats not fact. Did Iraq not have tons of chemical and biological weapons that were uncovered during the inspections in the 90's? Did he not kick the inspectors out? Has he not hindered their current efforts? Has he not all of a sudden had a change of heart everytime he feels the heat of the comming attack? Is North Korea not a human right nightmare? Are they not starting up nuclear reactors against UN's words? Do they not sell weapons to anyone who wants them? Has the US not liberated Europe from Nazi Germany? Has the US not donated BILLIONS of dollars to Africa for AIDS and to Somali's?

[Axtech]

Oh, yes. I can see Bush welcoming other countries to inspect everything in America...

Still, all of that is still speculation. Did you see the money exchange hands? No. Did you see the nuclear weapons? No. You have no idea what's going on.

Yes, some of it is true. But it's sad that you blindly believe everything your government tells you (and by government I mean anyone with governing power over you, not just Bush & pals).

[Venom]

Oh, yes. I can see Bush welcoming other countries to inspect everything in America...

Still, all of that is still speculation. Did you see the money exchange hands? No. Did you see the nuclear weapons? No. You have no idea what's going on.

Oh thats always a classic arguement. "Why not inspect the US?!" Well sonny its because the US doesn't threaten its neighbors and the rest of the world with them. And in fact we have been destroying our nuclear arsenal since the end of the cold war just as many other countries have. We also don't use them on our own people. Iraq is being disarmed for a reason. You should know that arguement is a poor one. For shame.

[Venom]

And I don't believe everything my government tells me, but when it comes to something as serious as this with as much evidence as there is I'd be a fool not to.

[Axtech]

I didn't say we should inspect America. I'm saying that Bush wouldn't let it happen any more than anyone else. Saying that the inspectors got kicked out doesn't mean a thing. No country wants people who are threatening them to be snooping around.

Which brings me to my next point. America has threatened other countries. Yes, with some good cause. But through other country's eyes, America isn't the perfect country that you seem to think it is.

[Venom]

I never said America was perfect in fact if you read all my posts I have said that its not. No government is. What I am arguing is that disarming Saddam if he doesn't comply is justified. He is already in material breach of resolution 1441 and that resolution says that if that occurs there will be "serious consequeces". Now 3 countries don't wanna abide by the resolution that they signed. Hence UN = irrelevant. Another resolution is not needed. The UN has an obligation to uphold its resolution.

[happening fish]

So the UN has an obligation to uphold its resolution but the USA has no obligation to respect the decisions of the UN. I see.

And the reason Canada is helping you in this war is because if we didn't, we would run the risk of becoming your next target. If the USA decides to wage war on Canada AGAIN, then this time we will lose. There is no doubt about it. My country is cowardously bowing down to yours, and I won't deny or defend our actions.

[mosaik]

venom, for christs sake, there are no facts. if there was hard evidence, the proverbial smoking gun if you will, then iraq would be a crater by now. only the fact that it takes a very long time to lie and fabricate enough "evidence" to invade has held off that inevitability.

the conspiracy crap is based on evidence that is just as real. the facts as your government reported them were a bloody mess with richard reid. unfortunately he was never given a fair chance and has changed his plea.

but he's innocent. i know he is. you set him up like you set up saddam.

i don't even know what we're arguing here anymore. i'm anti-war because it makes the least sense to invade over nothing. you can not prove to me that saddam is dangerous.

but if you want to try, gather up all your sources and put them in one, tidy, easy to access post.

while you're at it, throw in some irrefutable evidence regarding palestine, too.

[Bandalero]

i don't know how a person who claims to be rational can in one breath admit that government screws the people & then say that it's alright.

how do you justify letting it happen man? you admit that it does go on, now tell me what you tell yourself that makes you feel better about all the bullshit that the government is pulling.

do you really think they're acting with your best interests in mind when you yourself have seen overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

how can you believe a contradiction?

ok neither do i, because i never said that. i said i aknolege that it happens, but the world knows that Iraq and N. Korea aren't doing things in the best interest of the world. the US isn't saying Sadam is bad, the world is, take a look at why turkey is so damn scared right now, they want patriot missle batteries.


here's a story for you:
i'm from the area where the duke of duval county put a president into office, stuffing good old box 13. he held that ballox box out long enough to see what lyndon johnson needed to win the county in the state elections. see belive it or not, the presidential election of 2000 isn't the worst election ever. the state election was tight when Lyndon Johnson ran for a state position, and it came down to one county for the decider. Jim Wells county. Duval county was Johnson's because the duke of duval county made it his. back in those days you never went against the duke, because he would ruin you. he said vote johnson, and the people did. if you didn't guess what, your ballot said you did when it came to counting the ballots. but his influence went across county lines and into Jim Wells. he held box 13 until every other vote was counted, and Johnson was down by 600+ votes. So he stuffed 800 ballots into box 13 and Johnson would end up winning. some people grew suspicious and actually went to the voting place and asked for the ballot box. what was funny was that a Duval county sheriff arrested these people in jim wells, where the election was taking place and locked them into a jim wells county jail, where he had no juristiction. now you and me today would be bitching and screaming murder, but guess what, it didn't happen. cause again you don't mess with the duke of duval. he would have seized your land took your house, ruin any buisness you might have owned and kicked you out of the county. so the texas rangers were brought in to take the ballots and count them, but box 13 was burned and the ballots inside were ruined. so johnson is in the state level because the other canidate was constantly coerced into giving up by none other then the duke of duval. and this guy helped him win a presidential nomination and evenutally the election. (though he really didn't need it) not only that but George Pharr (the duke of duval) and an associate that controled a bank in corpus christi texas that would give money to kenedy when he was in office. kenedy said i need 250,000, it was done no questions asked. he also had someone killed and even though the texas rangers were investigating they couldn't link it to him. wanna read a good book? read "the fall of the duke of duval". that book tells you what this monster did to the region.

how do you justify that? you don't you can't and you won't. that's living with contradiction, that's taking a huge rod in the ass, and then saying it's alright. this shit doesn't happen anymore. not this extreme. hell, Gov. perry is not taking 7% of what i got in my pocket, he's taking it out of the schools i go to. it's not right but he won an election, so what he says goes. at least my vote counted. that's how you justify getting screwed over. it's going to be alittle expensive and i might not get some classes i want but it's nothing compared to what George Pharr did. Bush is an angel compared to this guy. you wanna talk about injustices that the goverment pulls, talk about this because it really is an injustice. just because the UN is making sadam open up for inspections isn't anything to complain about. your right, there is no smoking gun evedence, yet. but history tells me that he's not to be trusted. we have a moron in office, but he's there for the betterment of the country. he's not george pharr brokering deals that help no one but himself and his political pawns.

[starvingeyes]

evidence? like the <a href ="http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20030208_1486.html" target ="new">explosives training school</a> that turned out to be a TV studio?

this war is not about weapons. this is about orchestrating a "clash of civillizations" between arabic people and jewish people [ and their supporters ] to facillitate global dominance.

it has been the stated aim of members of the bilderberg organization to create a one world government. this is what bush is trying to do. i cannot believe that anyone can trust their government so long as this group continues to exist and hold it's annual private meetings.

[mosaik]

ooooohhh you want fixed elections?

http://www.guerrillanews.com/counter_in ... oc233.html

Greg Palast does something that CNN journalists do not. he investigates.

That's the shocking truth about the 2000 elections. no, it isn't bullshit. it's the truth. and just for some cred, remember that

... the U.S. Civil Rights Commission said my findings were correct.

this shit is happening. i can get more examples if you need them

[call me andrew]

m very upset with whats going on in the world now, not that there ever was a time i wasnt. i see no point to this war besides the fact that george bush and co want to make an assload of money off of oil. and whats the price that everyone has to pay? human lives. not to mention the billions of tax dollars that are being put into paying for the missiles that were sending over there. and yet..there are so many ignorant people out there thinking that this is all for the benefit of the world. do they really think that were just going to bomb iraq once and saddam will be stopped instantly? happy ending for all? great, now everyone can celebrate and run freely through the streets because the wicked witch is dead. ...are you kidding me? thousands of men, women and children will be killed throughout the process of resolving NOTHING. and all i want to know is...why? all because some spoiled brat threw a tantrum and wants a profit? but no, we cant think that because we live in such a free country. what we are supposed to believe is that the evil saddam is holding these secret weapons that somehow everyone knows about but has never seen. now, im not denying the fact that he most likely has weapons...but prove that hes going to use them. WHERE IS THE PROOF. WE ARE BASING THIS WAR ON PURE SPECULATION. once someone has proved that sadaam will unleash these mysterious weapons upon us, i might feel the slightest bit of justification behind this war. on second thought, no war is justified.
oh, and may i ask one more thing? what ever happened to good ol' bin laden? it seems as though we have forgotten about him in the midst of all this sadaam/weapons/war confusion, when only a few months ago he was the most wanted man in america. silly fools. cant you see that this is the government and the media playing with your small minds? obviously not.

[mosaik]

Colin Powell's proof that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction?

he has the bill of sale!

step 1: "Build better weapons than everyone else"
step 2: "Sell the old crappy weapons to someone"
step 3: "Test the new shit on the guy who bought the old shit. Hey... Hes dangerous.. look at those weapons.. we better bomb his ass"

[Venom]

on second thought, no war is justified.

If no war was justified we would all be living under the rule of the Nazi's. You have AMERICA to thank for that NOT being the case today. If you think war is never justified you are an ignorant fool. You are a pacifist that would bend over and take it up the ass by anyone who wants too! "War is bad......take what you want, rape my mother, I don't wanna fight you." Are you one of those kids that never stands up for themselves? If so then I can see where your Anti-War point of view comes from. Just bend over and spread them cheeks son, cuz if thats the way you view life then ur in for a sore rectum.