Stripped

[starseed_10]

^^ agreed.

[starvingeyes]

Hmm. A "slut" is a woman who is sexually promiscuous. So, yes, there are such things as "sluts" out there. I don't know what the hell you think the word means, but you're wrong.

no, a "slut" is a bullshit term that is the last dangling shred of patriarchal opression of women in society. there is no such thing. this is the 21st century here. i should hope we've become more progressive then that. the fact that people still a. consider it their business how many men a woman has slept with and b. give a flying fuck about it is the single dumbest thing our society does.

frankly i think anyone who thinks it's "morally wrong" or "societally unacceptable" for a woman to wear revealing clothing or have sex with multiple partners is acting very ignorantly. i'd use stronger language but i'm not looking to hurt any feelings.

men do it, and nobody cares. welcome to the year 2003.

1. She actually has a voice. Yet she's chosen to go the route of selling an image, rather than actual music. So that peeves fans of actual music. And yes, it's an image. What's the underlying message of Dirrty? "Hey, be slutty." That's it. No depth, no real meaning, no point, no value.

ugh. all music, even pop music, is MUSIC. whether or not it's groundbreaking, original or even very good is up to debate. please don't reduce the intelligence level of this conversation by saying things like "it's not music" or she's not talented.

and the underlying message in dirrty is to fight against the myth of the slut. it's about sexually liberating women and it's about godamn time one of those diva types stepped up to the plate on this one.

3. There is a difference between "sexually liberated" and "gyrating against random guys while the sprinklers go off and airing it on Mtv." Sexual liberation is, by defintion, the ability to say yes OR NO to sex, and it's your own choice. Ms. Aguilera is pushing the "yes" side of that a bit too much for it to be "liberating." She's forcing herself, and as she is a role model, others, into slutting themselves out just so they can feel in control.

refer to above. no such thing as a slut.

i know a great many females who have several sex partners, some of them more then 10. i have dated girls who have been sexually active since a young age and they are all GREAT people.

the word "slut" to me is no different then the word "nigger". there's no fucking place for it in this day and age.

[starvingeyes]

and to the other poster - no voluntary choice "demeans" women. if they CHOOSE to be in porn movies, or CHOOSE to be a stripper or CHOOSE to wear revealing clothing then they are doing it because they want to, and that is not demeaning.

i feel like i just walked into a republican party convention in this thread.

both of you should check out http://www.ifeminists.com

[Joey]

I agree that the label of "slut" doesn't really apply here .. but my only problem is that these singers are supposed to be role models for young girls out there who look up to them and want to be just like them and this is setting a bad example for them. I have more respect for singers like Chantal, Michelle Branch, Vanessa Carlton, even Pink and Avril .. they have beautiful voices and you're not distracted by their lack of clothing or their gyrating on stage .. those are the female role models .. Christina and Britney are simply entertainers. That's how I see it anyway.

[starvingeyes]

it's not a "bad" example, it's just an example to follow. believe it or not you can be sexually active, even promiscous, and still be a great person.

[Joey]

That's not the issue .. I'm talking about 6 year olds wanting to 'dress like Britney' and 10-12 year olds dressing like that and attracting the attention of much older guys .. maybe unwanted attention .. that's fine if you're old enough to understand what you're doing and to make your own decisions about sex and who you sleep with .. but I'm talking about their younger fans who don't quite understand the problems that can come with dressing like that. I agree that it doesn't matter how many guys you've slept with when it comes to judging someone's personality .. that's a personal choice and if you want to sleep around .. go for it .. personally I think that's a little disgusting and nasty to have multiple partners .. but again, that's not the issue ..

[starvingeyes]

i don't know what's disgusting about it, but then you're younger aren't you?

basically, my view is how about we let the artist do whatever he/she wants and we let the PARENTS look after their kids? if you don't want your kid to dress like britney, don't let her. if you don't want her going out with older boys, don't let her. if you don't want her shooting smack, don't let her, and so on and so forth.

this "role-model" horseshit is just more of the same from our limp dicked society. we are always looking for some else to blame. it's a bunch of bullshit. this is no different then blaming columbine on marilyn manson and doom. it's crap.

[Joey]

No I'm not younger .. I'm 23 actually and I've seen a lot of kids hurt by trying to be cool like britney and christina .. stop acting like you're above everyone else and your opinion is the only one that matters or is right .. cuz trust me .. it's not.

What's disgusting? Knowing the guy/girl you're with has slept with half the neighborhood .. it's pretty obvious why it's disgusting so I shouldn't need to go into details .. but then again, you're probably younger aren't you?

[Brooklin Matt]

xchrisx,

Could you back up your statements a little more. What you mentioned about the media is a very poorly conceived notion. I agree that the word slut was probably derived through our male-dominated society, but men can be the same thing. Just because its more widely accepted doesn't mean its right for guys to act that way. Sexually liberated doesn't mean bang as many as you can..........its about understanding those feelings and letting it enhance you and your partner(s) lives.

I think when sex is viewed as a commodity, it makes us all consumers who must have it. That's typical of media brainwashing. And so is letting girls like Christina and Britney dance their choreographed dance crap and do a little striptease just so girls will think that its the right way to act. Its not about hiding your feelings, but when they are exploited, it makes me wonder why we asa society condone it so much?? xChrisx, are you trying to tell me that porn liberates women because it shows sexual freedom??

And parents don't really control their kids much after the age of 8-9. Friends and media role models become just as important and can influence total stupidity. Our culture is highly dependant on media values, and what they put out does render consequences. AN Example is how males become more aggressive and less sensitive to women when watching hardcore porn. It objectifies them, and allows males to rely more on instinctual urges rather than proper behaviour.

[starvingeyes]

a. joey - cool your jets. i'm not trying to offend you. i had thought that you were a little bit younger, that's all, and maybe not so experienced in those things.

and i STILL fail to see what's disgusting about knowing that somebody has had a great deal of sex. that usually means that they're better in bed. not everybody settles down right away. lots of people have several different partners before they find one they love.

b. animal - my parents still had a great deal of control over me right up till i was 16, and the only reason that control went away was because they relinquished it. good parenting, i suppose.

as far as porn goes, i'm trying to tell you that it liberates women because it allows them to make their own choices. did you know that there is a school in the united states where middle aged women come and learn how to strip? they do this because stipping makes them feel sexy and powerful.

just because gloria steinem says porn makes men insensitive to women and demeans them doesn't mean it actually does. you'll notice that 100% of women who call porn "demeaning" aren't doing it. they are just trying to be busybodies and tell other people how to live their lives.

the belief that our society has that people need to have reality censored for them is crap. people need to claim some fucking responsibility for their actions and stop trying to scapegoat everything on some patsy, in this case the popular media.

the reason people are getting stupider is because they don't have to accept responsibility anymore. i can sit through 72 straight hours of hardcore porn and still know how to treat a lady. my little sister has every britney, christina, pink and shakira record there is and has seen all of their videos multiple times. she knows to act responsibly.

stupid people who don't know the difference between right and wrong are stupid. don't punish the rest of us for their idiocy.

[I AM ME]

pretty good points on both sides....... so you can just call me switzerland

[Joey]

a. joey - cool your jets. i'm not trying to offend you. i had thought that you were a little bit younger, that's all, and maybe not so experienced in those things.

and i STILL fail to see what's disgusting about knowing that somebody has had a great deal of sex. that usually means that they're better in bed. not everybody settles down right away. lots of people have several different partners before they find one they love.

My jets are cooled Just don't use the age thing .. bugs me. As for why it's disgusting .. for me personally I'd rather be with an in-experienced guy and know he hasn't slept with an entire nation, then be with an experienced guy who's slept with every girl you know .. that's just me though. The more guys/girls you sleep with .. the less respect you seem to have for yourself .. sex isn't something to be shared with EVERYONE you know and then some .. for me it's something special between 2 people who love each other .. I lose respect for the people who sleep around with random people .. but again, that's just me and just my opinion. I've been played by way too many guys just out for a 'quick fix' and that's just not my thing .. I'm not a whore sharing my body for anyone who wants it .. I have a lot more respect for myself and I was raised with morals I guess.

[Brooklin Matt]

Hey xchrisx,

good points......I can see where you are coming from and I admit that I agree with some of it to a point. MY arguements were quite conservative and I admit that I am not the squeaky clean model. I watch porn a lot, swear profusely, yell...........you get the idea. With porn I am pretty loose, in that I enjoy it, but would never expect my girlfriend to act that way, nor would I treat her like an object (unless its playtime and she likes it) hehe
Porn demeans women by having them dominated over by men in those movies. They are always giving in to male demands, and appear to only want one thing. Its very male oriented and these women do it for money......its the bottom line.

Your parents are "one of the good ones" as I always say. My parents did their best but my sister was and still is unruly at 26 years old. Reasoning means very little if someones emotions are messed up, and most teenagers have imbalanced and confusing emotions. I know lots of good kids who just fell off the wagon despite their parents time and effort. I really don't quite agree with your point on this one. Though strong parenting early on does promote a good basis for the child its not the end all and be all.

Your rebuttal is however something that I do agree with. Just because a girl as had lots of sex makes her no different. Personally I am not interested in girls who get around simply because I am quite monogomous, and what gets around is looking for the superficial qualities that I don't want in a girl. (unless its a one night stand, a mutual agreement). Its my personal choice. So what gets back to Christina is that I find her unattractive and I find her choices of get all dirty to be succumbing to what males want rather than her expressing her sexuality. I don't know if Christina really does get "dirrty", and frankly I don't want to know. It is the image that little girls should be like that that irks me a bit. That's all.......

anyways, glad to see some class on the page rather than childish yelling.

[Gimme_Shelter]

speaking of which, wheres all the childish yelling?

[Narbus]

no, a "slut" is a bullshit term that is the last dangling shred of patriarchal opression of women in society. there is no such thing. this is the 21st century here. i should hope we've become more progressive then that. the fact that people still a. consider it their business how many men a woman has slept with and b. give a flying fuck about it is the single dumbest thing our society does.

No, there are such things as sluts. Simply because you have chosen to not judge against someone who has a lot of sex does not mean they don't have a lot of sex.
Also, in this day and age, with the sheer number of STD's out there, it is a concern how many people someone has slept with. True, in many cases, it isn't the business of those who are throwing around the terms, but it is still a concern.

frankly i think anyone who thinks it's "morally wrong" or "societally unacceptable" for a woman to wear revealing clothing or have sex with multiple partners is acting very ignorantly. i'd use stronger language but i'm not looking to hurt any feelings.

men do it, and nobody cares. welcome to the year 2003.

The phrase "nobody cares" is misleading, at best. People do, and should, care about how many partners the person they're looking to be with has had. Again, with the diseases. The same principle applies to why it is considered "wrong" (your word, not mine) for someone to have a lot of sex with many partners. It's frankly dangerous.

ugh. all music, even pop music, is MUSIC. whether or not it's groundbreaking, original or even very good is up to debate. please don't reduce the intelligence level of this conversation by saying things like "it's not music" or she's not talented.

I consider actual music to be something made by an actual musician, not an entertainer. Perhaps it would have been more clear had I said this, instead, but it's the point I wanted to make. She could be an actual musician, she has the talent (which I did say before, so don't accuse me of calling her talentless) but she has chosen to go the route of an entertainer. It's one thing for someone with no talent to be an entertainer, it's much more annoying when someone with actual talent chooses that route.

and the underlying message in dirrty is to fight against the myth of the slut. it's about sexually liberating women and it's about godamn time one of those diva types stepped up to the plate on this one.

You mean besides Mariah Carey, Madonna, Deborah Harry, or any of a number of women who have promoted this agenda before in music, only did it MUCH MUCH BETTER I realize that Mariah isn't the best example here, but she did do this before Christina.
If you honestly think that this is the first time that a woman has done this, then you are really naive.
If you honestly think that wearing pants that require shaving before putting on is the best way to advance this agenda, then again, you are really naive.

refer to above. no such thing as a slut.

Refer to above. There is. Simply because you don't like the word doesn't mean it's going to go away.

i know a great many females who have several sex partners, some of them more then 10. i have dated girls who have been sexually active since a young age and they are all GREAT people.

I never said they couldn't be. Any negative connotation you are applying to the word slut is yours alone. All I said it means is a "girl who is sexually promiscuous." If you think that's bad, then that's your own bias. I never said either way.

the word "slut" to me is no different then the word "nigger". there's no fucking place for it in this day and age.

The key difference is that a person chooses to sleep with many people. You don't chose what color your skin is. If you make a decision, as is your right to do, then you have to realize that it's other people's right to call you on that decision. You can't have it both ways, sorry.

[Gimme_Shelter]

you can have it both ways

[Gimme_Shelter]

i can sit through 72 straight hours of hardcore porn and still know how to treat a lady.

actually if someone sat watching 72 non stop of hardcore porn i would say they have worse problems then not knowing how to treat a lady

[emily]

Narbus, you might not have said "slut" either in a negative or in a positive way, but any way you look at it, it's gonna be negative. No one complements you by calling you a slut.

[starvingeyes]

a.it's not "dangerous" to have sex with many different people. they have this great device out these days called a "condom". apparently, ensuring that the male wears one during intercourse is 99% effective in combating STD's and pregnancy.

despite what you may have heard from pro-abstinence sex education in public school, you are more likey to die playing a game of soccer then you are to contract AIDS from having unprotected sex with a heterosexual partner who is not a needle-drug abuser or a prostitute.

statstically, driving your car is infinitely more dangerous to you then having sex with a condom on.

b. slut is a slur. it needs to be removed from society's lexicon. if you want to refer to somebody who gets alot of action, call them a "pimp" or "promiscuous".

c. i consider music to be what it is: anything with a melody.

[Narbus]

a.it's not "dangerous" to have sex with many different people. they have this great device out these days called a "condom". apparently, ensuring that the male wears one during intercourse is 99% effective in combating STD's and pregnancy.

Really. I see at least three problems here.
1. You have to use a condom everytime. The chances that this will happen do, natuarally, go down the more you have sex.
2. Condoms are not 100% safe. They do break, and if there are areas of the skin exposed during sex, then certain STD's are still transferable. Herpes, public lice, etc.
3. You are assuming that everyone will use the condom properly, as well as use a functional condom. Improper use (doubling up, improper application, use of improper lubricants) or using non-latex condoms, or novelty condoms, will all increase the chance of disease and/or pregnancy.

despite what you may have heard from pro-abstinence sex education in public school, you are more likey to die playing a game of soccer then you are to contract AIDS from having unprotected sex with a heterosexual partner who is not a needle-drug abuser or a prostitute.

statstically, driving your car is infinitely more dangerous to you then having sex with a condom on.

Do you care to actually back up this claim with any kind of actual statictics? When making such a statement, it is the nice thing to do.

b. slut is a slur. it needs to be removed from society's lexicon. if you want to refer to somebody who gets alot of action, call them a "pimp" or "promiscuous".

...
Because "pimp," which means someone who sells out girls, is oh so much better. It's an insult, yes, and again I'd point out that if you want to make certain decisions, as is your right, then it's the right of other people to call you on those decisions.

c. i consider music to be what it is: anything with a melody.

Did you forget to read my post? There is the type of music that is made to be art, and there is the type of music that is made to be merchandise.
Ms. Aguliera has chosen to go the route of merchandise. She made a decision, she is open to criticism. See above.
Also, music, by defintion, is more than just a melody. It also has rhythm and harmony.