ClumsyMonkey.net

Axtech wrote:I know what you're saying, and I definitely understand your view on this. However, scientists (which is an odd choice for a group to cite, I think) aren't exactly decided on this debate either. Yes, life begins at conception. But I believe the argument is that there are a number of living things that aren't human and that aren't valued the way human life is. The difference here, of course, is the potential to become a full undeniable human. Question is whether the potential alone is enough to justify being human. In this it becomes more of a philosophical debate than a scientific one.

And I'm not sure if you were directing that last comment towards me, but do not assume ignorance when someone offers a different view. I'm not even debating you, I'm just offering up the opposing view since your reasoning before was looking at a very very simplified form of the argument.

Yes Rob, I understand that you are not really debating me, nor am I directing my comments towards you. As for the science comment, I stand by it. At conception, life starts, and from that embryo, a human develops. It may be extremely similar to other species, but human nonetheless. I know that there are a lot more complexities to the issue but I’m sure you are aware that previous threads have gone quite in depth into them.

Joe Cooler wrote:

beautiful liar wrote:

Joe Cooler wrote: Since when was your right to choose greater then someone elses right to live.

Regression? Hardly.

Since that person will be feeding on me. Since that fetus was forced upon me and not a choice. it's my body. if something grows in it against my will, i want the right to choose whether or not it will continue being a parasite.

You do realize that only 1% of all abortions are a result of rape. Most abortions are carried out because the boyfriend doesn’t want the child or the child would be some sort of inconvenience. Saying that the abortion law should exist for occurrences such as rape is a weak argument. There are other institutions in place that can deal with unwanted pregnancy like adoption agencies. Secondly, a child is a "parasite" of sorts whether it is in the womb or living outside it. It still relies on someone to live.

I realize a minority of abortions occur because of rape. Still, they do. It's not a weak arguement for those who have needed them. 9 months of your life lost to carry this fetus to term? Plus whatever complications; particularly if you aren't that healthy to begin with.

If abortion is illegal, it still goes on; but turns into a much bigger risk for the woman in more dangerous, unregulated circumstances.

I need to leave this thread. We are not going to agree, and this is too personal for me to talk comfortably about on a public message board.

Imagine how personal it is for the child....

I do agree also, on a comment from before, about how bizarre it is that people who were Anti-Iraq are pro-abortion(Not to generalize, there are people who are against both ofcourse, but overwhelmingly that is true)

beautiful liar wrote: I realize a minority of abortions occur because of rape. Still, they do. It's not a weak arguement for those who have needed them.

Claire, I think its weak because a rich 30 year old women can walk into a clinic and abort for no reason at all if she wants to.

I'm sorry if I've hurt your feelings. Really, I am.

I've calmed down now. Thanks for apologising, I was hurt, despite the fact I know you had no intention of offending. This is about the only issue that I can't help but personalize.

Abortion is a spiritual issue, it's not possible to determine it scientifically. I know science can and has shown that the fetus has all the signs of life but so do plants and animals.

Joe cooler, I'm sure you're protesting abortion on spiritual means and not on scientific ones. the fact is that there are no facts about souls, so your position on abortion will now and forever be subjective. You believe it is wrong, but you can't prove that the fetus is sentient and therefore you can't prove that abortion is wrong.

If it were made illegal women would just turn to underground clinics. The saying is that you cannot stop an idea, and as long as women believe abortion is right for them they will find a way to make use of the service. There is no way to stop it.

agreed

mosaik wrote:Abortion is a spiritual issue, it's not possible to determine it scientifically. I know science can and has shown that the fetus has all the signs of life but so do plants and animals.

Joe cooler, I'm sure you're protesting abortion on spiritual means and not on scientific ones. the fact is that there are no facts about souls, so your position on abortion will now and forever be subjective. You believe it is wrong, but you can't prove that the fetus is sentient and therefore you can't prove that abortion is wrong.

If it were made illegal women would just turn to underground clinics. The saying is that you cannot stop an idea, and as long as women believe abortion is right for them they will find a way to make use of the service. There is no way to stop it.

What you said is true, there are no facts about souls, so why do pro-choice supporters assume that only after being born does a baby receive its "soul." We have no idea when the soul emerges, so we should not assume that a fetus does not have one. It’s simply a tragedy that a child can be aborted in its second or third trimester and it is considered "ok" when killing it moments after it exits the womb is considered a tragedy. Does a child receive its soul between its third trimester and its birth? We have no way of knowing, so why is abortion still going on.

Wow, it's really hard to find out information on Canada's abortion laws.

However, from what I can tell, abortion is only legal for the first 20 weeks, unless keeping the baby could potentially kill the mother.

For me, abortion is a very tricky issue. I can't really say I'm on either side. I think that abortion should stay legal because it allowed women to be in control, rather than their families sending them to mexico to undergo very dangerous operations. Morally though, I don't know if I consider abortion "right" or "wrong". Luckily I've never been in a situation where I've ever had to make that decision. For one thing, I think abortion is taken too lightly by the general public. I think that anyone who considers abortion a form of birth control doesn't deserve to be having sex. Playing with lives because it's easier than putting on a condom or getting on the pill is bullshit. It should be understood that abortion should only ever be THE last resort.

I don't know though. I could never give up a child for adoption, but I'm also lucky enough that I doubt I'll ever be in a situation where it would be impossible for me to care for a child. The thing is, mistakes do happen, and I really want to be ready for a child before I have one. I don't want to resent that child as an intrusion on my life, I want to appreciate them in my life.

I don't know, the legal side of the debate is something I've already decided on, but the personal, moral side is something much more to think about.

If I could ask you all a question. Why is a baby only a baby when it is wanted? Like, if you were ever pregnant, happily, would you be referring to the child inside you as "Fetus"? No, you would not. How is it our society on the one hand, celebrates pregnancy and the coming of a CHILD inside the womb, when it is planned/wanted/a happy surprise, but on the other hand, when it is unwanted, it is viewed as a problem with a solution?

thirdhour wrote:Wow, it's really hard to find out information on Canada's abortion laws.

However, from what I can tell, abortion is only legal for the first 20 weeks, unless keeping the baby could potentially kill the mother.

First off I'm glad your at least thinking critically about abortion. Secondly, to (hopefully) provoke a little thought, here is a picture of a fetus at 20 weeks old.

this morning there was a picture of stephen harper in the paper with a kitty on his lap!! it was a really cute kitty.

Headline: Harper prepares breakfast meal of eggs, toast, and kitten saucage.

Okay. This falls under the category of "what the fuck is Harper doing?"...

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national ... 60126.html

Axtech wrote:Headline: Harper prepares breakfast meal of eggs, toast, and kitten saucage.

Mr. Hypocrite himself who claims that transparency and accountability in Ottawa are his top priorities...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... 6/BNStory/

Yeah, I saw that in the Globe this morning and I was PISSED.

"The report was ready last Friday but delayed to prevent accusations of political favouritism in the last days of an election campaign."

But yet it was fine for an RCMP probe about the whole Income Trust thing to be used as a political ploy when no-one has been found guilty?

My ass...

In other news:

Axtech wrote:Okay. This falls under the category of "what the fuck is Harper doing?"...

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national ... 60126.html

Oh God.
Let the games, begin.

thirdhour wrote:In other news: