EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT Article!!

[starvingeyes]

I'm the fool? The fools are the ones who think the terrorists will just stop killing if left alone. The fools are the ones who believe Iraq and Afghanistan are better off with tyranical leaders

the united states rules iraq despotically and incompetently. at least hussein was adequately competent.

and the "terrorists" would stop killing if you would stop equipping them to do so. you actually by that crap about osama bin laden "hating our freedom"? are you serious?

Yes some civilians died, but not all can be blamed on US bomb. Some are the result of their governments misguided weapons. Even the Iraqis and Taliban knew the US had great respect for innocents

o that's a stretch. show me evidence of iraqui or afghani bombs being used in either of those conflicts. the only military ordinance those pathetic armies used were shoulder mounted rpgs, and the occasional scud in iraq, which were always aimed out of the country. at leats 95% of the 10 000 people killed in those conflicts was by us bombing.

or by us delta force operatives "accidently" slaughtering a school which had been converted into a friendly military base/refugee camps.

or by us air forces "accidently" bombing a wedding party.

and the list goes on...

yet you would rather woman be opressed under tyranical autocrats. YOU should be ashamed of yourself!

o please! your hypocrisy is glaring. you tolerate untold human rights violations every day by your oil buddies, the saudis, and you allow the sudanese government to engage in the fucking slave trade! america doesn't give a cow's shit about human rights abroad and you know it. "liberating the people" of iraq and afghanistan had <i>nothing</i> to do with the reason you entered either of those conflicts, a fact which is transparently obvious to anyone capable of critical thought.

They want the Israeli's out of land that is rightfully theres

\

HA! what kind of ass backwards logic could you use to justify that statement? all of israel's land has been aquired through force. that is not a rightful claim to anything.

[doug]

nice post Chris.

how'd that feel, venom?

[Venom]

the united states rules iraq despotically and incompetently. at least hussein was adequately competent.

and the "terrorists" would stop killing if you would stop equipping them to do so. you actually by that crap about osama bin laden "hating our freedom"? are you serious?

The only think Hussein was competent at was killing thousands of his own citizens. How are we eqipping the terrorists??? Are we not supposed to have airliners? Last I checked were weren't exporting muslim men with bombs strapped to thier chests for $1,000 a pop.

o that's a stretch. show me evidence of iraqui or afghani bombs being used in either of those conflicts. the only military ordinance those pathetic armies used were shoulder mounted rpgs, and the occasional scud in iraq, which were always aimed out of the country. at leats 95% of the 10 000 people killed in those conflicts was by us bombing.

or by us delta force operatives "accidently" slaughtering a school which had been converted into a friendly military base/refugee camps.

or by us air forces "accidently" bombing a wedding party.

and the list goes on...

http://www.iwar.org.uk/news-archive/2003/03-27-3.htm

Also if some of the "market bombings" were from US bombs there would have been A LOT more destruction then there was. That is why its believed to be from a surface to air missile. I still stand by my postion that war is war and civilians die. You can dig up whatever numbers you want and it won't make a difference. Its war!

Do you deny that the Iraqi's put SAM radar and misslie launchers on and arounf schools, mosques, and hospitals??

o please! your hypocrisy is glaring. you tolerate untold human rights violations every day by your oil buddies, the saudis, and you allow the sudanese government to engage in the fucking slave trade! america doesn't give a cow's shit about human rights abroad and you know it. "liberating the people" of iraq and afghanistan had nothing to do with the reason you entered either of those conflicts, a fact which is transparently obvious to anyone capable of critical thought.

The Saudis will be delt with. Its comming. By the way how big do you think our military is?? We can't go everywhere all at once without help. Since 1991 all we have done was help these people. Iraq, Kosovo, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, etc. First you don't want us doing anything now you want us everywhere??? Whos the hypocrit here??

HA! what kind of ass backwards logic could you use to justify that statement? all of israel's land has been aquired through force. that is not a rightful claim to anything.

That land was a UN mandate in the hands of the British. They gave it to the Jews for thier own state. (as well as a Palestinian one). Therefore it is rightfully theirs!! Are you denying this??

What else you two boys have for me?

[doug]

The only think Hussein was competent at was killing thousands of his own citizens. How are we eqipping the terrorists??? Are we not supposed to have airliners? Last I checked were weren't exporting muslim men with bombs strapped to thier chests for $1,000 a pop.

wrong. in 1973 Hussein's nationalized oil industry led to funding for new schools, universities, hospitals and factories. In the 70's, Saddam also led Iraq to become a leading voice in the middle east among fellow arab nations. He set up and then sustained an infrastructure in that nation that was IMPROVING until... guess when? 2003, the year you boys invaded.

http://www.iwar.org.uk/news-archive/2003/03-27-3.htm

Also if some of the "market bombings" were from US bombs there would have been A LOT more destruction then there was. That is why its believed to be from a surface to air missile. I still stand by my postion that war is war and civilians die. You can dig up whatever numbers you want and it won't make a difference. Its war!

Do you deny that the Iraqi's put SAM radar and misslie launchers on and arounf schools, mosques, and hospitals??

For starters, your link proves nothing. It does not disprove Chris' assertion and it only creates the possibility that iraqi bombs caused the deaths. that's not proof.

secondly, what does it matter where the iraqi's place their weapons? that does not change the fact that civillians are being killed by your bombs. if you want to get rid of the damn SAM radar so bad, send in some marines to do it manually.

and your whole "in war civillians die" rhetoric doesn't hold up either. war or not, it's still murder. the fact that you deny this demonstrates clearly how irrational your way of thinking is.

The Saudis will be delt with. Its comming. By the way how big do you think our military is?? We can't go everywhere all at once without help. Since 1991 all we have done was help these people. Iraq, Kosovo, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, etc. First you don't want us doing anything now you want us everywhere??? Whos the hypocrit here??

you are. the saudis will be dealt with? when? what are you going to do, the same thing you're doing in iraq? how do your ongoing campaigns in iraq and afganhistan respect human rights? how about israel? your nation sends them more money ever year and they use it to slaughter palestinians and americans alike.

you say you're treating the iraqi's fairly, but you're NOT OVER THERE. reporters who write for YOUR NEWSPAPERS who have seen how your army treats the iraqi's are writing more and more EYEWITNESS REPORTS detailing the disgusting things that are going on. your foreign policy is the greatest example of hypocricy there is.

That land was a UN mandate in the hands of the British. They gave it to the Jews for thier own state. (as well as a Palestinian one). Therefore it is rightfully theirs!! Are you denying this??

Yes. I am denying it. what gives the UN or the British the right to kick the Palestians out?

[joe_canadian]

That land was a UN mandate in the hands of the British. They gave it to the Jews for thier own state. (as well as a Palestinian one). Therefore it is rightfully theirs!! Are you denying this??

Yes. I am denying it. what gives the UN or the British the right to kick the Palestians out?

That is a very good point.

[Venom]

No its not a good point. Do you people ever look things up or do you take whatever Doug says as gospel?? Stop being followers and think for yourselves. Here is the evidence:

From 1517-1917 Turkey's Ottoman Empire controlled a vast Arab empire, a portion of which is today Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine. During World War I (1914-1918), Turkey supported Germany. When Germany was defeated, so were the Turks. In 1916 control of the southern portion of their Ottoman Empire was "mandated" to France and Britain under the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned (mandated) to France... and "Palestine" (today's Jordan, Israel and "West Bank") was mandated to Great Britain.
Because no other peoples had ever established a national homeland in "Palestine" since the Jews had done it 2,000 years before, the British "looked favorably" upon the creation of a Jewish National Homeland throughout ALL of Palestine. The Jews had already begun mass immigration into Palestine in the 1880's in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria and prepare for the rebirth of Israel. This Jewish effort to revitalize the land attracted an equally large immigration of Arabs from neighboring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions. There was never any attempt to "rid" the area of what few Arabs there or those Arab masses that immigrated into this area along with the Jews!

http://masada2000.org/historical.html

[Venom]

Oh and Doug I think your starting to confuse yourself. You're going around in circles. You accuse the US of using human rights as a front for other objectives, yet when I say Saudi Arabia is gonna get theirs you think its bad. So are you for human rights or not?! You complain we aren't doing anything about it but when I say I think we will you have a fit. Its obvious you just like to stir the pot. You have no well thought out views you just like to bitch. If I say heads u'll say tails. If I say sit you say stand. Its really quite funny. You have no answers for how to deal with things. You just like to criticize the people who can make a difference. You cannot have peace without victory and you cannot have war without death. Sorry but thats the way things work in this world. Its not gonna change.

[Venom]

One more question to better understand where you're comming from. When in the history of the world was it written that its wrong for people to die in war? War had been around as long as mankind and there has always been killing. In fact its gotten a hell of a lot more humane (unless we have a nuclear war thats another story). Is it your religion that tells you war is wrong? What is your religion? Did you ever stop to think that religion is the root cause of ALL wars? Religion is hipocritical.

[Johnny]

[Axtech]

One more question to better understand where you're comming from. When in the history of the world was it written that its wrong for people to die in war? War had been around as long as mankind and there has always been killing. In fact its gotten a hell of a lot more humane (unless we have a nuclear war thats another story). Is it your religion that tells you war is wrong? What is your religion? Did you ever stop to think that religion is the root cause of ALL wars? Religion is hipocritical.

What's your point? Killing can be considered wrong on the level of personal morality. If innocent people are killed as an act of war, does that make it right? 9/11 was an act of war. Are you justifying these murders because it can be put under the heading of "War"?

[wanan]

One more question to better understand where you're comming from. When in the history of the world was it written that its wrong for people to die in war? War had been around as long as mankind and there has always been killing. In fact its gotten a hell of a lot more humane (unless we have a nuclear war thats another story). Is it your religion that tells you war is wrong? What is your religion? Did you ever stop to think that religion is the root cause of ALL wars? Religion is hipocritical.

The fact that war has been around since the beginning of time does not make it right, or the only option to use.

As for religion, yes I do believe it is the root of many of the world's problems. But that's a whole other can of worms to open up.

[Bandalero]

all of you self proclaimed kurtzwell fans should know this, death gives meaning to life. if you so wish to make yourself availible to death like join the army, then by all means that's you decision. remember, the object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other son of a bitch die for his.

[Axtech]

Just to add to my fanishness, it's Kurzweil.

Yes, death gives meaning to our lives. That doesn't give us the right to bring that death upon others. If, however, someone voluntarily goes to war, they are putting their life at risk for their beliefs. If people don't voluntarily go to war (making themselves innocents), they have the right to live, regardless of whether their killer is involved in war or not.

[Bandalero]

understandable, however it is the duty of the innocent's leaders to bring peace to them. with their actions, they jepordize the innocent's peace. and they only have their leaders to blame.

[Axtech]

But that doesn't justify killing them. If a tyrant runs a country, and goes to war, that doesn't justify attacking innocent civilians who happen to be under the control of said tyrant.

[doug]

No its not a good point. Do you people ever look things up or do you take whatever Doug says as gospel?? Stop being followers and think for yourselves. Here is the evidence:

...There was never any attempt to "rid" the area of what few Arabs there or those Arab masses that immigrated into this area along with the Jews!

......

http://masada2000.org/historical.html

That's a pro-jew website and i think it's facts are wrong. few arabs, eh?

taken from MSN Encarta:

Palestine was already inhabited, however. The countryside was home to Arabs, most of them Muslims, while the larger towns contained both Arabs and Jews. Some of the Jews were long established there, while others were religious pilgrims from Europe who had come to live near the holy sites in Jerusalem and other cities. (Because the vast majority of Palestinians were Muslim Arabs, the term Palestinians now usually refers only to them, not to the Jews of Palestine. Most Palestinians are Muslims.)

So now we have contradicting points of view. I think the ENCYCLOPEDIA is slightly more credible then your angry zionist fan-boy and his "easy to read maps".

there WERE arabs living there before the jews, lots of them. the brittish and the UN decided to kick them out. not fair.

Now then, on to your bullshit about me:

Oh and Doug I think your starting to confuse yourself. You're going around in circles. You accuse the US of using human rights as a front for other objectives, yet when I say Saudi Arabia is gonna get theirs you think its bad.

yes, i do. i think your goddamn over egotistical country sticking its nose in any other country is bad because all you seem to do is fuck things up and kill folks. clue in america: you suck at being the worlds babysitter.

So are you for human rights or not?! You complain we aren't doing anything about it but when I say I think we will you have a fit. Its obvious you just like to stir the pot. You have no well thought out views you just like to bitch.

Ah, venom, how little you read. if you were active on this message board you'd see that i'm one of the most opinionated people you'll ever meet, and what's more i always have rational basis to back up my arguments.

I am for the following human rights: the right to life, which is a right your country flagrantly disrespects. i am for the right to property, again a right your nation seems to care less about. lastly, i am for the right to liberty. that is no longer a right the americans seem interested in defending at home or in their foreign policy.

If I say heads u'll say tails. If I say sit you say stand. Its really quite funny. You have no answers for how to deal with things. You just like to criticize the people who can make a difference. You cannot have peace without victory and you cannot have war without death. Sorry but thats the way things work in this world. Its not gonna change.

it's not going to change as long as you have your say about it, but i disagree and hope to have my say soon enough.

[Bandalero]

the intent of the US army is not to attack civilians. some die as a result of war, but it's never intentionally.

[call me andrew]

How about being proactive and finding a solution to the problems that are spawning this violence instead of being reactive and just fanning the flames with MORE violence?

) The fact is America has tried. The roadmap to peace that AMERICA drew up was working find UNTIL the Arabs bombed Israeli neighborhoods again. THEY DON'T WANT PEACE!!! Can't you see that. They want the Israeli's out of land that is rightfully theres.

israel has a right to nothing. especialy land that we told them to get out of, and then the go back into it, bulldoze palistinian homes (sometimes with people in them) and then put up little jew towns and then "protect" them by opressing the palistinians and shooting missiles into palistinian cities and killing people. how the FUCK is that right? and then we send them $10 billion a year. to do more. what the FUCK? now you've pissed me off.

[Venom]

wrong. in 1973 Hussein's nationalized oil industry led to funding for new schools, universities, hospitals and factories. In the 70's, Saddam also led Iraq to become a leading voice in the middle east among fellow arab nations. He set up and then sustained an infrastructure in that nation that was IMPROVING until... guess when? 2003, the year you boys invaded.

NO YOU ARE WRONG! Iraq was falling apart. Go out and buy this weeks issue of Time magazine. I quote "Iraq's electricity grid is barely functional, and its oil installations aren't much better. The oil refineries can't be repaired in my opinion, said Republican Senator Lindsey Graham. They have to be replaced." Everything in Iraq is old and falling apart. Saddam spent the countries money on himself. The US did not bomb these either because they knew they were necesssary in the reconstruction. How do you see an ancient power grid and the lifeline of thier economy falling apart "improving??

What's your point? Killing can be considered wrong on the level of personal morality. If innocent people are killed as an act of war, does that make it right?

EVERYONE has different morals and most people would agree that killing in war is necessary and not murder. Just because you think its wrong doesn't mean the majority of people think it is.

That's a pro-jew website and i think it's facts are wrong. few arabs, eh?

Funny you say that since all the crap you post about the Israel/Palestinian conflict is pro-palestinian. Hypocrite. Anyway the land was supposed to be for 2 states. The Arabs didn't want that. They fought to have it all and lost. Their fault not the Israeli's!! How can you say thats not what happened. You link says the same as mine except for the word "few". The bottem line is that they were both there and had a right to a state of their own and would have, but that wasn't good enough for the racist and religiously oppressive Arabs.

israel has a right to nothing. especialy land that we told them to get out of, and then the go back into it, bulldoze palistinian homes (sometimes with people in them) and then put up little jew towns and then "protect" them by opressing the palistinians and shooting missiles into palistinian cities and killing people. how the FUCK is that right? and then we send them $10 billion a year. to do more. what the FUCK? now you've pissed me off.

All I have to say to you is see above and GO READ A HISTORY BOOK!! They have every right to that land. You can argue Gaza and the West Bank but the Palestinians lost that in war that THEY started. Fair and square.

[doug]

NO YOU ARE WRONG! Iraq was falling apart. Go out and buy this weeks issue of Time magazine. I quote "Iraq's electricity grid is barely functional, and its oil installations aren't much better. The oil refineries can't be repaired in my opinion, said Republican Senator Lindsey Graham. They have to be replaced." Everything in Iraq is old and falling apart. Saddam spent the countries money on himself. The US did not bomb these either because they knew they were necesssary in the reconstruction. How do you see an ancient power grid and the lifeline of thier economy falling apart "improving??

unsubstansiated. at least when i make a point venom, i back it up with a resource. "saddam spent the countries money on himself" - prove it.

the senator says things need to be replaced, well no shit. i bet if you look around america there are thousands of towns and communities operating just fine with old or outdated equipment. are they a third world country now, too?

EVERYONE has different morals and most people would agree that killing in war is necessary and not murder. Just because you think its wrong doesn't mean the majority of people think it is.

irrational. might does not make right, majority vote does not make right. there is no ironclad code of right and wrong, but if we agree that murder is killing somebody who hasn't provoked you, then the 7000+ you've bombed so far were murdered.

Funny you say that since all the crap you post about the Israel/Palestinian conflict is pro-palestinian. Hypocrite.

First of all, that's completely false. prove it or shut up. the last resource i quoted was the encarta encyclopedia, which is impartial - maybe it's even a little pro-jew, pro-usa. i'm not the one who has to make shit up, because the facts support my position.

Anyway the land was supposed to be for 2 states. The Arabs didn't want that. They fought to have it all and lost. Their fault not the Israeli's!! How can you say thats not what happened. You link says the same as mine except for the word "few". The bottem line is that they were both there and had a right to a state of their own and would have, but that wasn't good enough for the racist and religiously oppressive Arabs.

Can you blame them? the brittish mandate and the UN wanted to give away part of their homeland. how would you feel if the UN decided that half of the country you've been living in now belongs to Canada? would you "accept" that decision, or would you fight it?

hmm?