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Posted: 2/9/2003, 8:51 pm
by Venom
Pictures can lie.....very easily. Should I start posting pictures of the crime scenes of suicide bombers??? I could easily do that. For all I know thats what those pictures are from. We all know the Israeli army stormed those towns.....I'm sure innocent people died, but what is a goverment supposed to do to respond to daily bombings during those months. What would you have done if you were Sharon. Just let ur people continue to be bombed and murdered?
Posted: 2/9/2003, 8:52 pm
by Venom
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/10/international/middleeast/10KURD.html
Iraq ties to terrorism?? If they want to have their slate cleaned of that association it would behove them to find those responsible and bring them to justice. Do you think they will?
Posted: 2/9/2003, 9:14 pm
by Corey
xchrisx wrote:corey.
"High Explosives--Pre-Blast
Do not need confinement; detonate; initiated by shock of detonator
Exception: blasting agents; booster needed for detonation
Types: commercial dynamite, binary (such as kinepak), improvised (tatp, hmtd), military (TNT, FLEX-X, C4)
Insensitive to heat, shock, impact and friction; can be used underwater; most brisant "
from YOUR source. read again where C4 and TATP are both categorized as high explosives--pre-blast. they are not the same bomb. they do not have the same make up. they are totally different compounds. that's why one is called C4 and the other is called TATP.
you see corey, there is only one type of explosive compound called C4. there are different compounds made of the same material, but they all have different names, such as C3, which is a weaker version of the same thing. when the FBI says C4 in nature, they can only be referring to C4. C4 is not an ingredient. it is a finished product. they don't put "C4" in other bombs, they put RDX in C4, among other things. do TATP and C4 both contain RDX? probably, i don't know. however, if the FBI believed the bomb was an RDX based compound, they would've said "RDX in nature" not "C4".
Well of course they are not the SAME bomb or else they'd have the SAME name. "in nature". When you say something is like something else in nature that does not mean it IS that thing. If you glanced at TATP, would you be able to confirm it was TATP and not C4? No of course not. That would be like looking at blood and saying it was John Doe's DNA. They are both plastic explosives and ignite when exposed to heat according to that same article. They are alike, in nature. Not to mention most people recognize the term C4 over TATP. Just because the FBI says something is C4 in nature (again I'd like to point out that this was IMMEDIATELY after the event) doesn't mean they are saying it IS C4. They even said they had to take it to the lab to confirm.
The FBI never claimed it was C4. Even you admitted there was no reference indicating so. So yes, you were wrong.
Posted: 2/9/2003, 9:21 pm
by starvingeyes
so he had to bomb and murder more people? they bull dozed the homes of innocent civillians!
that was not a military excericise against terrorist targets. it was a massacre of innocent people. what do you mean "sure innocent people died"? how the fuck can you be so callous about human LIFE???
you have NO regard for anyone who doesn't come from your preferred nations. your xenophobia is so stereotypically american it's revolting.
and your nyt article makes no link to this terrorist group and iraq other then to quote the dubious claims of the white house. in fact, i believe that article proves MY point that if the us really wanted regime change, they would allow the revolutionaries to take care of business, as mushir was doing before his tragic end.
Posted: 2/9/2003, 9:23 pm
by starvingeyes
corey i never admitted any such thing. in fact i posted an article in which the FBI claimed the bomb was C4. the bomb did not get changed to TATP until after skeptics began reporting on the unlikely hood of the C4 detonation without a det cap, which reid was not reported as having.
Posted: 2/9/2003, 9:25 pm
by Corey
xchrisx wrote:actually there is no such statement, and the second article is at the indictment hearing, less then a month after the actual incident.
after that, there is no mention of the type of explosive used in any major press publication.
Posted: 2/9/2003, 9:41 pm
by starvingeyes
you said any references. i can and have found at least one.
Posted: 2/9/2003, 10:04 pm
by call me andrew
palestinian suicide bombers are good. i hope they kill every one of those scum sucking israelis.
Posted: 2/10/2003, 12:16 am
by Bandalero
wow you were serious too huh? do you even belive in a god(s)? because this is what it's about, religion. bulldoze, bombs, human rights whatever....it's religion. if you don't have a religious belief that YOU are willing to die/kill for, then i sugest you take back your statement. either that or prove me wrong. come down here to Alice, Texas and personally prove me wrong with a bomb strapped to your person. hit highway 281 and head south. that mother runs from canada into texas.
i don't have a preference to pali's or israelis. as long as i can drink a beer with either or is fine by me. the fact of the matter, what it comes down to is religion. they kill in the name of their god. what i find ironic about it is that alot of you don't believe in anything, but you talk so passionately about it like your a crusader or something.
Posted: 2/10/2003, 10:06 am
by mosaik
Venom:
the massacre at jenin was not a retaliation. it was a godamn horror show, and it is what your country & it's allies are capable of.
the fact that you just dismiss it as justified proves two things:
1.) that you will only believe what you want to believe. you keep asking us for proof, and when we provide some, you just say "i don't believe you"
2.) that you do not have an open mind on this. your opinion is not based on research and reading you did for yourself, it's based on your ridiculous partisan loyalty and devotion to your government. you don't even know the whole story, just what the white house tells you.
Posted: 2/10/2003, 12:24 pm
by Venom
MY govenment had nothing to do with Jenin, in fact if YOU knew what you were talking about you would know the US told the Israeli's not to attack any villages and to withdraw once they did. Israel is not the US. We may have given them the weapons years ago but we had nothing to do with what they did. All my information comes from my own reading and research. I took classes on this stuff in college. I've heard every point of view on this and I think I am correct in my judgement of the situation. Yeah I ask you for proof and all I get is websites that look like they were put together by 14 year olds just learning about web design. You have shown me nothing of substance. Chris has given me some conspiracy theories by supposed ex-CIA or ex-government people, but nothing that proves anything. I have provided hard evidence on countless occasions. I have passed up many sites just like the slideshow you gave me, except it was Israeli propaganda. I however know enough not to post it because its garbage.
Posted: 2/10/2003, 12:53 pm
by mosaik
hard evidence?!
there is NO hard evidence! if there were hard evidence we wouldn't be debating this!
prove that palestine is to blame for jenin and the rest.
prove that Osama is guilty.
prove that saddam is going to nuke the world.
if you have hard evidence, then let's have a look.
Posted: 2/10/2003, 1:31 pm
by Bandalero
Doug E Fresh wrote:hard evidence?!
there is NO hard evidence! if there were hard evidence we wouldn't be debating this!
prove that palestine is to blame for jenin and the rest.
prove that Osama is guilty.
prove that saddam is going to nuke the world.
if you have hard evidence, then let's have a look.
um...Osama came on Al-jezerra and said he did it. you discredit the US media, now discredit these guys. cause it's a right you have, now go over there and discredit them, see if you come back.
Saddam used bio weapons on his people. because they got in his way. can you imagine what he's got planned for those who he really hates? what about the countries that have assets that the Iraqi leader wants? it's obvious that he'll try what he wants to do. now his people follow him blindly because if they don't they'll be the next lab rat to test a new weapon.
as for cashmir, i personally could give a rats ass about it. let them kill each other off for it, in the name of their god. hell, i'll pay taxes and fund one side just to see it. cause it's entertaining and i get a hard on from it. because i'm from the US and i do that kind of thing right guys?
Posted: 2/10/2003, 2:10 pm
by mosaik
reno wrote:now his people follow him blindly because if they don't they'll be the next lab rat to test a new weapon.
and you follow your master blindly because the matrix has you.
you amerikans. reno, my friend, when was the last time you ever questioned your government on anything of concequence?
Posted: 2/10/2003, 3:41 pm
by Bandalero
Doug E Fresh wrote:reno wrote:now his people follow him blindly because if they don't they'll be the next lab rat to test a new weapon.
and you follow your master blindly because the matrix has you.
you amerikans. reno, my friend, when was the last time you ever questioned your government on anything of concequence?
look at me guys, i'm following a leader that only cares about oil and money, where as doug here believes that a movie that a director made so that he could obviously make hundreds of millions of dollars through the American dream actually has political bearing. such a hipocrit. maybe Matrix 2 will be more interesting, cause all i was doing was makig out with my chick in the theatre. then i rented it and found out it was a waste of time. i can picture it now,
professor: ok class were going to watch the matrix because it has some political backing, and it's going to teach us how the US and other goverments all around the world set up lies and make their populations more patriotic.
i question the goverment all the time, you didn't read my rant about rick perry fucking me and every college student over in the state of texas? or the Raza Unida political party that was destroyed by democrats in charge? i know the goverment fucks people over. but i also know that what Iraq and N. korea are doing isn't right. and that's not just the US saying this it's the whole world. hell, france only wants time, they're skeptical too. once they give the extra time, triple the inspectors, and we find something france is grabbing a gun, and running in ready.
Posted: 2/10/2003, 4:49 pm
by mosaik
the movie's philosophy falls in line with mine.
i don't know how a person who claims to be rational can in one breath admit that government screws the people & then say that it's alright.
i personally take offense to a dick in my ass. i don't care if it's a little one, like taxes or tuition hikes, or a big one, like being blown up.
if somebody's fucking me, i don't stand for it. i don't know what lines you feed yourself to keep the bile down, but everytime i hear about how the government stepped on some poor sob's dick, it makes my stomach churn.
how do you justify letting it happen man? you admit that it does go on, now tell me what you tell yourself that makes you feel better about all the bullshit that the government is pulling.
do you really think they're acting with your best interests in mind when you yourself have seen overwhelming evidence to the contrary?
how can you believe a contradiction?
Posted: 2/10/2003, 5:00 pm
by call me andrew
reno_ruelas wrote:
it's religion. if you don't have a religious belief that YOU are willing to die/kill for, then i sugest you take back your statement. .
have a religion <i>or</i> back up my statement? i dont have one but to back up my statement, i say that they are freedom fighters. they are all thats between israel and taking over the region. if you do some research they're usualy palistinian males who had their homes bulldozed and were shipped out to refugee camps. there, they spend they're teen years devising a way to cause as big an impact as possible. send a message. kill for some revenge, and get recognized. why they tack on religion, i dont understand. i have studied islam (i think its great principles, but i just couldnt believe it).
reno_ruelas wrote:. come down here to Alice, Texas and personally prove me wrong with a bomb strapped to your person. hit highway 281 and head south.
i'm in houston, texas. i'll be there in a couple hours to show you what i mean[/quote]
reno_ruelas wrote:what i find ironic about it is that alot of you don't believe in anything, but you talk so passionately about it like your a crusader or something.
i feel that way because i'm half moroccan, and i've met a palistinian refugee. he told me of days before WWii, andafter. his home was bulldozed in the early 80's. [/quote]
Posted: 2/10/2003, 5:25 pm
by Venom
Hey Doug when you find this perfect world that is perfect and just for everyone where no one feels hurt, let me know. Fact of the matter is perfection doesn't exist in things like government. Not many things can be perfect. Sure you can bowl a perfect game, or throw a perfect game in baseball, but government.....sorry pal. You're searching for something you won't find anywhere. You can bitch about injustices till you're blue in the face and guess what? You're just spinning your tires. Fact of the matter is that the US is about as perfect as you get in todays world. You wanna goto N. Korea and have to be on house arrest and be told what you can and can't wear. You wanna be told where you can and can't go? How about Iraq.....your leader can gas you and your family hows that sound. Or wait why don't you goto Africa where in 10 years you'll die of AIDS because there is no money for treatment. Where do you wanna go Doug? I know you can't be happy in Canada. No one is denying that there are some corrupt people in government, but what we are denying is your claim that what the US government is about to do is wrong. Do you think it was wrong to goto WWII? You think Hitler was a good guy? Well I'll tell you what Saddam and Hitler have a lot of similarities along with Stalin. You keep ranting your Anti-War rhetoric and we'll keep debating because you don't put up much of a test......in the meantime start campaining for a governmental office and make the world right my friend. You seem to have all the answers to the worlds problems. I mean the US would be much better off with you at the helm than anyone else.
Posted: 2/10/2003, 6:31 pm
by happening fish
Or wait why don't you goto Africa where in 10 years you'll die of AIDS because there is no money for treatment.
Africa is not in any state to help itself on this issue. You, however, are. Of the millions of dollars Bush promised to this cause, only a tiny fraction of the money ever reached the places it was needed. The rest never will.
Posted: 2/10/2003, 6:42 pm
by Venom
Well its Billions of dollars (15 to be exact) and what do you propose we do? We are DIRECTLY giving them the money. We're not going through the UN the money is going from Washington to the countries in Africa that need it. If they choose not to use it for AIDS relief, guess what? They won't get anymore. The point is we're giving it to them. Is Canada sending Billions of dollars to Africa to help those people? Nope. They have their own health problems....serious ones. I don't see any other countries pledging anything close to the amount that the US is. So to get to the point........What is your point?? I was pointing out the good that the US does in this world by helping others.